Film Roar

I am delighted you are starting to see Moore for the liar he is, but describing his work as having 'some inaccuracies' is a bit like calling Jack the Ripper as 'a bit naughty' (i.e. that is true but does not really convey the subject's true nature). For some reality, try: http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html

Say what you like about Bush (I am by no means an uncritical admirerer of that protectionist statist family either), but do not let your dislike of Bush lead you to defend a barefaced liar like Moore... he is simply not worthy of your support in any degree at all. The enemy of your enemy is sometimes NOT your friend!

I wouldn't go as far as Perry, but I basically agree. I think of Moore in the same manner I think of Oliver Stone. Stone's biography's and historical dramas are as much history as Moore's films are documentaries.

A more accurate view of Moore is as a polemicist who has an unfortunate background as a satirist who never learned to add logic to his rhetoric.

It wouldn't surprise me if Disney was worried about the effect of Moore's film on the opinions of the Bush's and other political powers. It's typical of large corporations not to want to rock the boat. Look at what happened to Microsoft after years of snubbing the political process (ever read Atlas Shrugged?). Now that they're showing they'll play along, giving lots of money to both parties, Gates actively doing the charity thing, the government has lightened up.

The problem with Moore is that he doesn't have enough credibility to do something truly controversial. ABC Primtime Live (owned by Disney), 60 Minutes, CNN, etc, does a movie with the same conclusions and there would be little doubt it would be distributed because it wouldn't be authored by a nut job with an agenda that often clouds the truth.

Moore is a digusting, smelly man. It amazes me that someone would sit down and do an interview with him. The way he carries himself (a hulking self absorbed hipster)annoys me to the point of repulsion. He is, of course, an effective propagandist. But, notice his films are always negative. Unlike the people working the propaganda machine in Nazi Germany that were glorifying their subject, Moore is always tearing down or ridiculing his. Ask him why he dosen't make a positive, "Documentary" about one of his like minded heroes. I'll bet he would push his glasses against the bridge of his nose and say with his greasy laugh, "I don't have any".

Michael Moore is a hate monger. Probably disgusted by his miserable appearance wants to inflict his frustrations and influence the next presidential election by twisting facts.This film ought to be banned since it is a libelous statement of the president and his family. I am an independent, not a republican, but I can detect evil intentions. Mr. Moore is one disgusting coniving individual and so is his protector and friend Tarantino who voted for this film. I think Tarantino is talented but as a person is in the same category as Moore.

Liz

Bush sucks, Moore is a genius !!!!. Face it kids, everyone is angered at Mike Moore because he exposes the truth, and as we all know, "THE TRUTH HURTS"

nazi, nazi, nazi, funny how that word draws such lurid thoughts. It surprises me that the word is written to destroy. Much like "evil", like Korea and what ever other alien land that posseses fireball capibilities does. Its fear. People fear what is not in line with their comfortable diet of obscure freedoms and alleged mental independence. Moore is an anamoly, and you are treating him as such. Great, he makes me laugh.

Are you all really that angry? I see this movie, simply, as an interesting take on current politics. Do you all really need to spit acid on a guru of doing, not saying. I am a simple person, I appreciate his humor. Mudslinging or not, I am sure that Michael Moore has enough confidence in us to develop our own political views. Have great conversations with your friends about this but don't get so worked up.

I think it's funny that whenever a group on the interenet begins making comments on something, the words "hate monger" and most especially "nazi" or "hitler" get thrown out. Come on boys and girls, atleast come up with some new material.

According to an article on Dark Horizons, Farenheit 911 has made a deal to distribute with 3 different companies and will be in select screens as early as June 25th with a video release due in October

I don't think Moore is capable of competing with the goliath, shall we say, untruth tellers there are amongst the Bush Administration folks. Full speed ahead Mike!

A trailer for the movie is up at Apple - Trailers - Fahrenheit 9/11

It's the internet age folks! Do a little homework of your own and make up your mind about the Bush Family. From Neil's BILLION dollar tax bailout to their many nefarious connections...check the current cabinet for familiar names from the Iran-Contra team who were pardoned by George HW Bush. It's history! Michael Moore doesn't have to think for you .. do it yourself!

No matter what part of what Moore says is true, I think that anything that would help kick Bush out of the White House would be good not only for the US but for the entire world in general. Geoge Bush is a war-mongering, bigoted, narrow-minded male pig that should be wiped out from the face of the Earth.

Oh. And I forgot. He's a hypocrite too.

Dont be afraid to see the movie. It MIGHT widen your horizons.

Oh please, come on, at least someone is trying to get Bush out the white house!

This Guy is in there much too long, so why we don't face it?
Michael Moore writes what most people think!
And even if some won't see it, there is not a single good thing at Bush!
I'm almost afraid he will win the damn votes again cause daddy has some friends we don't already know *rolls eyes*

Give the movie a try I won't hurt you all to see it and maybe it changes something too.

French and Belgian TV have just released a documentary called "Le monde selon Bush" ("The world according to Bush"), and it seems to fit damn well with what Moore denounces in Farenheit 9/11. Moore may be a liar... but what about Bush? If you don't want to see Moore's film, just go and have a look at this European documentary (you can find it on the internet). It MIGHT widen your horizons as Ann said earlier...

Wow, you guys don't pull any punches. I, for one, am surprised that there hasn't been a "mysterious disappearance" of Michael Moore. I am so grateful to see his message reach the masses. Agree or disagree, isn't it nice to be exposed to someone who isn't afraid to speak out against the frat boys who rule the earth? There is way too much power in the Bush family and our leader doen't exactly inspire truth and honor, does he? I got really excited after MM's last movie because it opened up so many cans of worms. I liked being given so much to chew on. It made me think, it made me proud and it gave me a little bit of hope that maybe, with an honest look at ourselves, we can straighten out this mess.

I'm so glad that Michael Moore enjoys his freedom to speak lies for the sake of making more and more and more money for guess who?..... Michael Moore. He's worth millions ........ I doubt that he would raise a finger to help his fellow man. He's so full of crap. I hope that everyone sees this horrid person for what he is. A man who is sitting on his high horse and he profits from creating turmoil, distorting facts, telling lies and half truths. What a loser! I do pray that the people of the U.S. wake up and do something about this hypocritical asshole!!! He who lives in a glass house (and speaks lies out of both sides of his mouth) should never ever throw stones. Our country is at a point that we need leadership, not some ass that loves creating turmoil just for the sake of turmoil and then makes tons of money off it!! Wake up America...and not to Michael Moore's tune!!!! Come on ye liberal press........let's be fair and show the other side for a change!

Standing up to the "frat boys"?? Geez.....Mr. "blue collar" Moore is worth millions and his kid goes to private school. He's living the American dream off idiots who will pay good money to see his lying piece of crap.

Don't just call Moore a liar, see the movie and point to something specifically that is inaccurate. From what I've seen from trailers, this movie should be seen just for the revelations contained within. I personally don't believe that congress reads every 500 page law passed on its floors. These types of things need to be exposed. I really don't give a hoot* if Moores' children attend private school; if they can wind up half as talented as he, it was worth it!

Oh, and crediting his insightful muckraking on a less than desirable physical appearance exposes your own immaturity and insecurity.

I see a lot of talk with no backed up evidence. It seems everyone on here has sided with their own political views disregarding the truth and accusing Michael Moore of telling lies. Well, I do not see anyone presenting specific examples of the lies he told. He is a film-maker and his film holds more credibility than your postings.
I personally thought Bush was a good leader until all his lies slowly unraveled. Bush has mislead the American People. There were no Weapons of Mass Destruction, there was no connection with Iraq and Al-Quaida. In addition, Iraq had nothing to do with 911. Bush falsifyed documents and reports and lied in order justify his war to the American people. Moore has simply asked questions in his film and has challenged the Bush Administration's motives. It is clear, the Bush administration keeps many secrets, distorts the truth and as a result has broken International law by going to war. Saudi Arabia has been avoided George Bush, and only now is it slowly being revealed through the media that it is a terrorist state. Saudi money Funded 911, funded the Taliban, and Funded George Bush sr's election Campaign. Bush and Bin Laden's have been in oil together for years. The war on terrorism should have been fought in Saudi Arabia. There were not Terrorists in Iraq, only an evil ruler who govered a country consisteing of different clans who hate each other. He used fear to keep them together and has posed no threat to the USA. Now, with Bush's war a new terrorist has evolved inside Iraq only adding fuel to Bush's fire. The war on Terrorism will end like the war on drugs. Its a war that cannot be won.

Leopoldo here, owner and operator of GeekRoar.com. I just deleted a message that had some interesting things to say but was mean spirited and insulting of others who have posted. I welcome people discussing the movie and the contraversy around it but will not tolerate flame wars on my site. If you make a post that is insulting I will kill it, if these posts keep up I will close comments on the page.

http://www.infowars.com/print/iraq/berg_archive.htm

It amazes me to see how some people worry about a guy making money with his films and, so they say, his lies. But these peole don't seem to worry about the leader of their country lying to the face of the world to serve his own interest!!! At least Moore's so called lies have not killed anybody, right? On the other hand, Bush's useless war on Iraq killed many people among which more than 600 American soldiers... some of you seem to forget this. Now THIS is serious. Who gives a damn about the millions Moore makes and about his kids going to private school! As far as I am concerned, I think they are lucky, that's all. Wouldn't you want the best for your own kids?

Hello, I don't know much about this Micheal Moore except some of you are saying that his movie is filled with lies. We'll what exactly did he lie about in the movie please tell me. I'm not being smug or sarcastic I really want to know what false information is in Farenheit 911? I've seen alot of B.S. from the Bush administration lately and I am not saying that to bash them, but between George and Dick it seem's like I can't trust a word they say. These men have lied to the world many more times than once, and these lies have resulted in dead human-beings, that is a fact not my opinion. This alone is the reason why I was intrested to see Farenheit 911, so I can see the real reason why President Bush declared war on Iraq and has lied about his intentions from the begining. I want to know exactly what Moore lied about in his movie, I've been lied to by my government for 3 years the last thing I want to see or hear is more lies!!

thank you,

In the news today, Michael Moore has lost the appeal to decrease the movie rating from R to PG-13. Details are at Dark Horizons: "Fahrenheit" Fails To Appeal (June 23rd, 2004).

American soldiers killed in Iraq: 851... (the figure I gave earlier was far from right, sorry about that!). And between 9 to 11 thousand civilians.

http://www.antiwar.com/casualties/
http://www.iraqbodycount.net/

Fascinating how those who choose to snub Michael Moore spew hatred and ignorance without without anything substantive to back it up. Critical thinking takes courage and compassion, not venom and rhetoric.

Noone including himself has annointed Moore a saint, but a true patriot says what needs to be said, popular or not. I prefer to surround myself with people who do not live their lives based on fears, which the Bush Regime and corporate media so completely perpetuate.

Why is there hate for this man that simply documented truths and pieced together his political opinion. I haven't heard one single fact to debacle his documentary, just insults about the man's weight and appearance.

Fact is, Michael Moore has opened our eyes to what's really going on in the Bush administration and in Iraq. Your supposed to go to war and kill innocent children, innocent Iraqi citizens, and 851 American soldiers ONLY when it is absolutely necessary!

We need a diplomatic leader, not someone that is eager to go to war in a whim and proclamate himself as the "War President":

"I'm the War President. I go to work with War on my mind"
George W. Bush

(yeah sure, because its easy to command the most effective Army in the world to secure your financial investments)

If there is anyone that can bash the documentary with pure facts, please do so. I would be eager to review any falsehoods to once again believe in our President.

Oh, and why is Disney trying to forbid distribution of the film?

I just got back from watching fahrenheit 911, and quite frankly Michael Moore did the job of informing the audience about connections between the current administration and the middle east and big business and the media. The proof of these connections is the appointed members mentioned and the various CEO seats that they held and profitted from. In the movie, Moore also doesn't take pot shots at Bush or question his presidency, but instead questions his actions. This is accountability. Simple and easy. If you are late to work, and the boss says why were you late, and you say because I got a flat tire, that is accountability. What this movie asks the audience to ask our leaders is "why are we still in Iraq?" That question has been asked at a thousand bars and by everyone in America. I for one am still waiting for a answer. Also if we as a people are to become enraged prehaps we should start smaller, like dealing with the 100 senators that were in office during the last election. A number of people from Florida appealed to have their votes counted, and were refused because not one senator would sign a petition. Not to change the election, but to count the votes. So if they're not going to count our votes- why the hell should we bother?

I was reading some of the comments at the top. I don't get why everyone is attacking Michael Moore! It makes me laugh. People seem to more disgusted by HIM than his movies. I guess people really can't say much about his movies. Yea sure, anyone can call anything propaganda. The entire media is propaganda if you're going to run by technicalities. Then we have people making ad-hominem remarks towards Michael Moore. Just because he is fat and ugly and his voice is Satan to all conservative ears does not mean his movies are bad.

And I've heard a lot about the controversy about Bowling for Columbine. Oh wow. I never knew people could point out what was wrong in a movie. These people are obviously extremely smart. Except, why can't they see all the lying schemes in the Bush Administration to our country and to our people? Is it much harder to figure out things when they aren't a movie? I don't get it. What about all the army propaganda? Haven't you seen those commercials? They're friken crazy. What about clothing advertisements, car commercials, etc. All of this is propaganda that seems to be ignored. But oh no! If some guy comes along and uses the same tactics everyone else is using to put their point across, including the majority of right winged republicans, to speak against the president of the united states, he is wrong. He should be criticized, censored, and demonized. Oh fucking shut up already and see the movie.

It's the blindness to the truth, to the facts, to listening to the other side of the argument, another point of view that is so disturbing about people's reaction to Michael Moore. Ifyou say there are lies, point them out. But better yet, jsut because it presents a different picture, don't immediately look for lies, try to be open-minded.

The only "liar" in this whole thing is Bush. Watch the movie and you will see. Yes it is sad. Ignorance is kind of like bliss. But it is time that we wake up and face the facts. I wish I could personally apologize to the people whose countries we bombed and destroyed their life. I am sorry. I do not support any part of war.

Please understand that Bush supporters rally to the cry "support the troops" while Bush has cut their pay, upped their workloads and sent them to Hell. Plus they say they're pro life and in the same breath, they say they're pro war, which means they're pro death.

I have just seen the movie. I have been suspicious of his, (President Bush), motives from the get go. Was no one the least suspicious when he shifted from Afghanistan to Iraq. In all of his speeches I was not convinced Iraq had anything to do with 9/11. I am so disappointed in Powell and not suprised by Rice's part in all this. Do a little research and you will find that benladdin and sadam were enemies. Do a little more and you'll find the bush family and the benladdin family were very close business associates. I do not understand the venom against Moore. The country is falling apart with unemployment and poverty. Where is your venom for that?

Documentary-
1. Consisting of, concerning, or based on documents.
2. Presenting facts objectively without editorializing or inserting fictional matter, as in a book or film.

Editorial-
1. An article in a publication expressing the opinion of its editors or publishers.
2. A commentary on television or radio expressing the opinion of the station or network.

Hmmm....seems like everyone who labels this a 'documentary' should go back to grammer school. Think Moore owns a dictionary?
-Jeff

Hello, I'm French and Swiss. I've seen or read most of MM's films and books, but Farenheit 911 is still not distributed in France (In September, I believe). But I've also seen the film by B. Karel "Le monde selon Bush", which seems to reveal the same facts as what you are saying about Farenheit 911.
I just wanted to tell you that a lot of French people (the one who read and follow what happens in the world) have the same reaction as I do : We do not hate americans, I love them, we just hate what Bush is doing to the world. I was born in 1948 and America was my model for a long time. What is happening in your country is a bit difficult for us to understand right now, and films by Karel or MM help us understand that this is mainly due to Bush's administration.
As a country cannot be seen through one person, even its president, America, the country of freedom, cannot be reflected by Bush. But America still is the country of freedom, either these films would not have been distributed. They have been, as difficult as it was.
Fight for your freedom, your wonderful country, do not try to model the rest of the world in an American way, and remain the country we love.

there are entire websites devoted to exposing the falsehoods that micheal moore espouses:
http://www.mooreexposed.com/
http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html
these websites listed above are two of the best.
as for those who say they want proof regarding moore's lies, here goes:
http://www.debbieschlussel.com/
http://www.debbieschlussel.com/columns/column032303.shtml

one of the most relevent comments in Farenheit 9/11, is made by the mother who has lost her son in Iraq. She acknowledges that she had previously been somewhat ignorant about the practices and intentions of the US government, and had not been able to understand why people were protesting against the war. As she grieves for her loss, she cries over the ignorance that has pervaded our culture, and says " people think that they know, but they don't...i thought i knew, but i didn't". She is referring to those righteous folks who choose to remain ignorant and then bite the heads off of those who have spent their whole lives fighting for the underdog simply because their lives are being dictated by FEAR.

The movie seemed to be some truth that was angled. It wasn't all facts. Just like any writer, Moore made the movie to suit his own opinions, which is fine. But we can't go and say Bush is evil, and had no good intentions or thoughts in entering Iraq. Geez, grow up. We have to admit that people in Iraq we suffering too. It souldn't have been any or our business but we made it out business because we had financial stakes in Iraq that we wanted more control over. No matter what Bush's intentions were in starting the war, there seems to be a great by product which is a country was liberated from under the boot of an evil, hateful man.
I do have one question for the Moore fans out there, if Moore is such a "truth seeker" why hasn't he made movies or commentaries on the lies that every other presidency has told the american public? Please tell me that we aren't all naive enough to beleive that Bush isn't the only jerk off president who lied for his own gain.

Because President Bush is the current president and the election is comming up. All of the other presidents are irrelevent, because they are not in office. Jeez I can't believe anyone would have to have this stuff explained.

BTW to anyone who doesn't think that MM isn't telling the truth then why hasn't anyone come forward with PROOF that some of MM facts aren't true, and don't give me these lame little websites where some guy is ranting about how ugly MM is. Why hasn't Fox news come forward and pointed out some of MM falseified facts or whatever? Its because they cant find any, and everyone knows that fox news would love to damage MM's reputation.

Redhot said something that really bothered me: "...we had financial stakes in Iraq that we wanted more control over." First of all I assume you are talking about oil, but terrorists keep blowing up the pipelines so we aren't making money. Secondly WE SHOULD NEVER GO TO WAR TO MAKE MONEY. The president should not be concerned with making money for his friends or for himself. He should be concerned only with the welfare of our country, and not the welfare of other countries.

Besides do you know how much this war is costing America??? Wars are good for the economy in the short run, but in the long run the economy always suffers. An economic depression always follows after a war, because taxes increase to pay off war debts.

The United States Government, commanded by G. W. Bush has openly lied and deceived the people of this country... one man armed with a camera has made many aware of that... and to my amazement, many have chosen to close their eyes and descredit him because of that...

the truth is NOT always popular and what is popular is NOT always the truth... to discover that we have been lied to and put in harms way for mere economic reasons (those are the real reasons for invading iraq, remember the words of paul wolfowitz) shocks us in such a profound way that we prefer not to see what is really going on...

open your eyes people... see whats going on, i dont see any rich kids going into combat in iraq, i see only people for small towns joining the ranks and that is not because some patriotic fever has overpowered them, its because that is one of the very few ways to get a decent income in those small towns... i saw our president and the British prime minister claiming that iraq was a clear menace to us because of stockpiles of WMD's, i was led to believe by the U. S. government that there was a link between the al-quaeda organization and the iraqui government... hell, i was told by president bush that prisoner abuse in iraq was the work of "a few bad apples"
AND ALL OF THAT TURNED OUT TO BE LIES... to make thing worse... there where the most basic, stupid and childish kind of lies told...

i think its time to say "ENOUGH"

"PUT A STOP TO THE 'MAD COWBOY' DISEASE IN AMERICA"

heh heh heh ............God, how we hate mirrors

Wow, at last, a whole bunch of sensible people out there. Wish they will soon reflect the majority of American citizens and open the eyes of all the others. And by the way, I love the "mad cowboy disease" term!!

Ifhttp://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html
and http://www.mooreexposed.com/ are the best arguments people have against Moore (neither of them even discuss fahrenheit 9/11), there really is no argument. using a few stupid comments he has made, his newly acquired wealth and his less-than strapping physique as proof that his arguments are wrong is completely ridiculous.

Fascinating. I just saw the movie, which I approached with skepticism because of comments I had read about his film on Columbine. I must admit it was both highly amusing and deeply disturbing. There are undoubtedly inaccuracies, most done by connecting images with narration, frequently without explaining the context of the images. However, I agree with the most important comment I've read on this website: I would like to hear someone debunk actual facts, not Moore's physique. There are disturbing connections uncovered in this movie. There are historically important images in the interviews of our soldiers and of Iraqi citizens. Don't miss it, and form your own opinion.

This post is for Sher....
To announce that there must be no
criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President,
right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally
treasonable to the American public. Theodore Roosevelt 1918.

Wake up and get ready, cause its gonna get real ugly around herrrrr.

I saw the film & was deeply disturbed by the connections that were made between the Bush and Bin Laden families. My son was overseas in the war so the film hit me especially hard. I was outraged to learn that Bush sent those troops to Iraq for no reason, basically. Bush cheated to get in the white house; I hope he gets his just reward.

It is projected that only half the registered voters will vote in this years presidential elections. Americans have been realizing the kind of monetary influence that international corporations and especial interest groups have had in lobbying our congress. It is a disgrace! At the same time the government have been preaching to us how much our vote counts. BALONY! We need more Michael Moores in this country to wake us up!

How soon people forget the events of August 1998.
Does anyone remember the missles that the Clinton administration sent to Afghanistan a few days after he admitted the innapropriate affair with Monica Lewinsky? Why not just put gasoline on a yellow jacket nest.
I thought the interviews with the soldiers in this movie were a crock. Pat Tillman would be ashamed of all who had anything to do with this farce of a movie.

Unfortunately, those "Bushies" cannot point any "lies" within this documentary for the information collected are from news archives. Those that do believe this documentary is filled with falsehoods are sadly the same morons that will tell you that the economy has actually improved since George's appointment to office.

What you are actually viewing, are facts the public has viewed via medias such as the Washington Post and MSNBC. There facts that actually have been left on the cutting room floor for that Moore himself deemed to be inappropriate.

Time magazine has written a recent article that should help you see through the "GOP" whining. Do yourself a huge favor, vote the Peoples REPUBLICANS from China, out of office, and give the USA a chance for survival.

Ask your local Communist (a.k.a. republican) representative to have their children go die for the Bin Laden's and Bush's!!!!

Good bless Our Troops and pray our once strong nation is allowed to comeback to life.

Michael Moore Pulled this off, PEOPLE ITS a DOCUMENTARY, made from nothing but real media footage. It just shows the REAL terrorist IS IN THE WHITE HOUSE!!! We must bring our boys and girls home safe. This supposed war on terrorism, is nothing but a sham, a smokescreen to divert Bush's real agenda, GREED! People, get you head out of a$$ and see Bush for what he is. INCOMPETENT!!!

2004 will be different, Oh thats right, He can depend on his moron Brother Jeb to hand Florida to him. If this appointed Jackass wins 2004 Im moving to Canada. I'll be damned if my son will die for this dickheads GREED. Send all the republicans sons over there, they beleive in the moron, support the moron, with your sons and daughters!!!

Oh you forgot to mention the Reagan sent all kinds of missiles to Bin Laden to attack Iran, Talk about amnesia....

stop being so ignorant! farenheit 911 is a great movie.

"Geoge Bush is a war-mongering, bigoted, narrow-minded male pig that should be wiped out from the face of the Earth."?? Come on Maya, I agree with you posts, but the "male" part of it? That was uneccesary. You just ruined your credibility when you got sexist like that. As if females are not capable of being narrow-minded bigots also?

Just a quick note. I think the movie is doing what it is supposed to do, which is stir up conversation. I am Canadian, so not too far north of what is going on. I have to admit that the present US government scares me somewhat. I have nothing against the people of the States at all really, I have a lot of relatives there. I also really liked the Regan administration. Bush is somewhat scary to me because everything that he says seems so false, superficial, I remember a comment after 9/11 where he was about to enter a helicopter and was asked his feelings on what happened, and in a monochromatic voice, he answered, "on one hand, I felt great sorrow, on the other, great anger" and that was it. It seemed so strange because it had no feeling in it, as if he was replying to whether he wanted cheese on his hamburger or not. Sadam was obviously a bad person, but I don't think he should have gone against the UN and attacked, it's called the UN for a reason, and because I want to is not good enough. I guess to sum it up, he scares me because he does what he wants to, whether the people are behind him or not, and seems to feed them what the need to hear long enough to get what he wants then sorts the mess out afterward. Of course, he is a figurehead, so who knows how much is him and how much is the government behind him. Anyone seen Canadian Bacon? Good movie to watch while this is in mind ;).

Just before the war, I drove from San Diego to Seattle with a friend who treated me to ten hours of right wing AM Radio. Is Moore polemical, biased, muck racking,insulting and warping facts - of course he is. I am thoroughly enjoying the fact that the idiotic right is getting a taste of their own medicine from someone from the idiotic left that finally managed to get access to a significant media venue.

http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm

http://slate.msn.com/id/2102723/

moore isn't lying you said? eat it

On another note, I'm not some war monger that totally loves war. I know for a fact that war is horrible but there are times where there is no other route. 17 U.N. Resolutions were sent to Saddam... nothing happened. I'm not saying Bush is the smartest of presidents but with the media playing on every mistake he makes, of course people are going to see Bush as "retarded." See him as a person. Look at the people that were suffering under Saddam and imagine trying to live under a man like that. They're free now and we've set up a good government for them. If I were sent to fight, I would be scared out of my mind and I am not ashamed to say so. But fight I would.

To back up Danny's post above, pro Bush and Pro Moore backers should both read the Dave Kopel article at:
http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm

See the movie if you want. But before you decide on its merit of truth, look at the counterpoint. To do anything less is irresponsible.

I saw Michael Moore asked about the fact that he cut things out of speaker's comments and the fact that he blended different clips together to make them seem like they happened at the same time. His answer was: "It's perfectly legal."

He didn't even deny it. He didn't say anything other than it was not against the law. That was when he made his Columbine movie.

Because of this, I don't see his movies.

And, I don't need Michael Moore to make me think. I am quite able to do that all by my little-ol-self.

Besides, Michael Moore has nothing to do with the war.

When those guys get their nuclear weapons, they'll release them here. And THEN we'll take real action. And when the nuclear war starts, nobody is going to be worrying about what is in the theaters.

I believe that Moore used literary license, but I don't mind, because he has helped to expose the Bush administration for what it really is, and has been trying to hide all along. This movie is crucial in the effort to get Bush and his mentors out of office and get America back to a sane path and position in the world. Afterall, look how FOX TV operates day in, day out. They have been doing the same thing Moore did only over a longer period of time.

More on FOX TV and how it compares to Moore's movie. FOX is a republican tool that is spewing hate and distrust to get people to convert from liberal thinking. They use old fashioned, tried and proven advertizing techniques to make the word liberal sound like a bad thing. Not just a label for a person with ideas different from conservatives. This is a very powerfull tool and it can change the minds of people who are unaware or too ignorant to know they're being manipulated. To get America back we may have to fight fire with fire. Moore's movie is great fire.

(responding to last person) when nuclear war starts we'll die.

wasn't bush pro environment during his 2000 campaign? Was that just to steal votes from nader and gore? wish someone would concentrate on that b/c we live in a very dirty country, with bush taking away environment laws already put in place (clean water act was within the first 8 months of his presidency right?) and he did something with the clean air laws too. All to help his big business campaign supporters, i'm sure.

Not to mention Suv/hummer driving soccer moms. I recently read an article about a woman who drives a hummer: she bought it b/c she "wanted to know that if (she) bumped into anthing on the road (she) wins". Honestly any woman with that mentality on the road should not be driving (don't get me started on women driving)

I digress

we are the dirtiest country in the world (time magazine 2001?) and when it's snowing in april and hailing in june in new jersey you cannot turn on the tv and hear your politician say global warming is not real.

I understand that this election is the most important election in many many years: it has to do with the war and the destroyed economy (bush kills every business he touches- from the texas rangers to oil companies to the entire us he always loses money). The election of 2000 was about everything but 2 of the biggest issues wwere the environment and censorship (gore was a moron to listen to his wife on censorship)

bush lied to us about both things - he passed laws actually destroying the environment more and have you heard howard stearn lately ?

I would just like to say for all of those out there who are running down President Bush for all his supposed "lies", which like many of the moore supporters comments, have presented very little actual examples and the tangible evidence to back them up, why don't you ask the actual military members who are the ones over there fighting this war, whether or not we should be there. the military is one of the biggest supporters of Bush and they are the ones over there dying day after day. there are numerous reports of soldiers being taken out of action, begging to get back so they can continue what they started. Second, if Bush did lie about why we went into Iraq, that was wrong of him, but that doesn't mean that we don't need to be there and that we aren't doing the right thing. if you really think about it, what possible reason could Bush have for saying, "well, you know, i know there aren't really any weapons of mass destruction over there, but for now, we'll just say there are and then when we don't find them, we'll make up and excuse"! What good could that possible do for him?! you may not like him, but he is a very smart guy (don't let his simple talk fool you). he went to an Ivy league school and has made it as far as he has, not by being stupid. he is not idiotic enough to think that the horrendously critical members of this country wouldn't jump on that in a heart beat. he obviously, honestly thought that we were going for the right reasons. it also takes more than the president to send our country to war. it has to be passed by the rest of our legislature and that was done, by your voting representatives! We will also never know many of the reasons and evidence for why our goverment does or does not do things. it would be seriously stupid for them to reveal everything to everyone because then they would have no secrets and all theirs ways of gathering information would be ruined! Lastly, if you are going to call something a "documentary" it should be as true as possible. from what i am hearing, much of the content was seriously miscontrued or even falsified. if moore thinks Bush is that bad, he shouldn't have to doctor anything for the truth to speak for itself. no one is ever going to agree with all ideas for any president or politician for that matter. if you are a really popular person,say in high school and you see some guy getting beat up for his lunch money, does it mean you should just let it happen because it isn't your lunch money and the bullies have the right to pick on who they want?! hell no, you should be helping him out because you can! i for one am glad that we have done the right thing in helping a country out of terror and evil and i hope we continue to kick ass over there and send a strong message to other countries who are going the same way.

I'd really like to know where the 'lies' were in this movie---alot of people will say the bible is full of contradictions but never come up with any specific ones and certainly can't prove it. Instead of saying it is full of lies, name them and prove it. Michael showed me more proof that it was true---how many soldiers would actually go on film knocking the motives of the war if it wasn't true? Ignorance is bliss I guess.

This is for Debby. I found this at a opflashpoint.org,which pokes holes in Moore's "documentary." The write up is lengthy, but worth reading. It notes that Moore's work is more akin to propaganda, which according to Webster's, is "an organized spreading of certain ideas."

The release of the 911 commission's book should also provide some good info. I myself have been searching for the truth. I just don't think I will find it with Michael Moore. I hope that everyone does not take anyone's word, but take the time research and learn. I also think we need to question the true intent of Moore's film. Before anyone goes to the polls, let's make sure that we make knowledgeable choices, as we will suffer the consequences. We have always been told to be careful what we wish for, we may just get it. Will we learn our lesson?

From Opflashpoint.org....
[Copy of text deleted, refer to original source -LM 7/26]

John: Thank you for adding your insight to the discussion. I was not however comfortable with a five page copy and paste from another site appearing on GeekRoar.com's comments area so I deleted the portion you copied. I do not know if the original is copyrighted and would rather not have a full essay added to what started as a post on movie news. I went to opflaspoint.org and looked for this essay so I could replace the text in your post with a link and did not find it. Can you look for the source and post a link to it? -Leopoldo, owner and operator of Geekroar.com

Michael Moores website michaelmoore.com has backup and sources for every fact in the movie in the order it was presented.
Also Phil Shenon, the New York Times senior correspondent who covers the 9/11 Commission, wrote "it seems safe to say that central assertions of fact in Farenheit 9/11 are supported by the PUBLIC RECORD (indeed, many of them will be familiar to those who have closely followed Mr. Bush's political career)" (emphasis added)
This is information that we all, as Americans, should have already known. The film need not have been a shocker, since it's all PUBLIC RECORD. A great disservice is being done by our corporate controlled, self censoring media.

Someone in this forum asked what is the motive for this war if not to liberate the Iraqis. That's the whole point. This was never really about Sadam Hussein or his people. The motivation was the multi-BILLION dollar contracts that Halliburton and others have been handed, without even having to bid for them. And who was Halliburton's CEO until 2000? Dick Cheney. And who is under investigation for allowing private companies (Haliburton, Unocal, Shell etc. ) to unduly influence our nation's Energy Policy? Dick Cheney. And which one of Dick Cheney's duck hunting buddies refuses to reclude himself from the Supreme Court hearing on Dick's case? Supreme Court Justice Scalia.
How much do you make each year? $30,000? $50,000? Think about what you'd be willing to do for $100,000. How about $150,000 (what Cheney gained from Bush's tax cuts for one year) What would you be willing to do for $1,000,000? We can't even conceive of what a billion dollars weighs in as on the power scale. Now multiply that by 100 or more. This war (like every other war) is good for business.

If you don't see the motive for stealing the power of our nation, the greatest nation in the free world, and putting it to work for the billion dollar gains of corporations, you're not paying attention. And if you aren't boiling mad about it- that's UN- American!!

The Moore website just looks like moore propanda. I suggest that if anyone truly wishes to check out the 911 Commission report, they can check it out for themselves at www.9-11commission.gov and come to their own conclusions. The 911 Commission absolved both Bush and Clinton of any negligence. After much searching on the topic, I have come to the conclusion that Moore's film exercises selective editing to further his viewpoint and agenda. It should be taken as such. In hindsite, our money would be better spent donated to our favorite charity. Better yet donate the time you would have spent to go watch the movie to your favorite charity. A couple of hours will do wonders for your community and your soul. We should all do our own research and come to our own conclusions. Don't let anyone fool you by their rhetoric and conspiracy theories. These people are the true "Misleaders."

A case in point that for this whole week, I have been listening to the various speakers at the Democratic Convention in Boston. The speakers were well-spoken, but we must truly listen to the spin. They blamed Bush for the economy, which is has really improved and expanding. They don't mention the 500,000 new small business created during this period. Small business are the biggest employers in the United States. They also mention of 1 million jobs lost under the Bush term, but do not mention that 911 knee-capped our economic engine. It is recovering and the Bush economic policies couple with Greenspans careful handling are responsible for this recovery. The last employment report I saw noted 112,000 new jobs for the month. I see this has positive movement. When we listen to these speakers, let's read between the lines and discover their motives and their hidden secrets. Politicians are slick and we must not be dazzled by the "spin" they splash on the issues. Don't think that because you are a member of a specific demographic that you owe allegiance to one party or the other. You are better than that. Look at the issues and make sure that they do not treat you as one of their statistics, but treats you with dignity and respect. President Bush is the first to have not just one, but two well-deserving African Americans in his cabinet. Not even Clinton, who has been embraced by this community, could find qualified people from the African American community? I think they are being taken for granted. I look forward to listening in on the Republican Convention. I am curious to hear what they have to offer.

While we prepare for the election, let us remember that there is a myriad of issues that affect our daily lives. Let's hear from both sides before committing our votes on the whim. Emotional decisions have a tendency to get us in trouble. When we go to the polls, let us be level-headed, because we will have to live with our decision for the next four years. Let's not have any regrets.

Clinton Lied Monica cried

Bush Lied - OUR SOLDIERS DIED

Here's a newsflash for many of you - NOT EVERYTHING YOU SEE IN THE MOVIES IS TRUE. God, how gullible can you be? I'm amazed at the number of people who are so willing - anxious, even - to be manipulated by the likes of Michael Moore. Artistic freedom allows anyone to create any film they want...but to pass fiction off as a "documentary" is a travesty, and a real disservice to the public. How anyone can accept as absolute truth the contorted "facts" and outright fabrications of the hate-twisted mind of a raving madman fills me with a real fear for the future of this country. Anyone who truly loves the truth can easily see the man (and I use that term loosely) for what he really is: a bitter misfit whose agenda is not to expose corruption, but much more selfish and personal: to pander to the irresponsible Hollywood hate mongers in a pathetic bid to "fit in" with those who misuse their celebrity status. If we allow ourselves to be deluded by their brainless nonsense, we deserve what we get. Our President has thus far succeeded in preventing further attacks on our soil, a fact which seems to be taken for granted by many. Undermining him will be perceived as weakness by those who want to destroy us. Wake up, people.

Nancy, you hit is right on the head. I could not have said more eloquently. We should not be depending on Hollywood for the truth, because they have proven that they are not reliable. Every movie, which has been based on real people or events has been enhanced for "entertainment purposes" and to express the director's vision. Michael Moore has taken it to a new level. For many people he has succeeded in passing propaganda for documentary. People are gullible and easily misled. He hooked them and reeled them in. Let us hope that common sense will prevail prior to the election.

You want a "real" documentary?
Try john pilger's "Breaking The Silence".
It's like the non-humorous version of
F911. A number of sites let you watch
it for free or download it.

I checked out John Pilger's lengthy film "Breaking the silence" and found it to be a continuous stream of propaganda. It interweaves conspiracy theories and pushes forth innuendo. It takes very sad pictures and slaps on convenient dialogue. He uses hearsay and rumor of what people have said, otherwise he would be using direct sound bytes. It features selective editing to further his viewpoint.

One thing we have to be careful with the so-called "independent" media (which is very much to the left), is that they have a tendency to push sensationalism, not journalism. How often is an article about something good in the world put on the front page of most papers? The front page is almost always an article about something bad, negative or tragic. The only way to get paid is to be printed. It would be interesting to have someone do some investigative reporting on Michael Moore and John Pilger and expose them for the frauds that they are. Of course these will be from the perspective of the investigator.

Yes, there are trajedies that happen. The film insuates that the bombing of civilians was intentional in Afganistan and Iraq. Why would any military waste their arsenal on such targets? In any conflict, people sadly do get caught in the middle. Accidents also happen. Intentional, I think not.

There were hundreds of thousands of Iraqis that where killed and buried in mass graves by Saddam's regime. The UN reported that there were weapons of mass destruction unaccounted for and that Saddam was playing hide and seek with the weapons inspectors. For ten years, this went on. Yes, they have yet to find any WMD's, but this does not mean that they do not exist. If you take inventory and have 10 items in your storage. If you lose 2 to damage, you don't end up with zero. You should still have 8 in inventory. The conspiracy theorists must be using some new math to come up with zero. In due time, we will know what happened to the rest of the inventory of WMD's. Let us hope that they are found soon and hopefully contained intact, disarmed and/or destroyed.

The "documentary" goes back into the history of the cold war, but fails to note the complexities of the conflict. It is promotes the idea of the "ugly American," yet it fails to cover the positives that have been accomplished. The Cold War was fought on many fronts and this is the reality of the conflict. It was a massive pissing contest between Communism and the free world. Millions of people are now free, but freedom is not free and has brought forth new challenges.

America has developed to become the last major super power, which makes countries like France and Germany green with envy. I am eagerly awaiting the results of the "Oil for Food" program audit. It may shed some light as to why the two have been behaving the way that they have.

As I noted in an earlier post, we should all do our own research and come to our own conclusions. Don't let anyone fool you by their rhetoric and conspiracy theories. These people are the true "Misleaders." A Latin phrase is very appropriate at this point. Caveat Emptor (Buyer Beware).

Some people are trying so hard to convince everyone that President Bush lied, that they themselves will distort and re-write history from their own perspectives to forward their own agenda. They are willing to pass off their propaganda as "documentary" with an intent to scoop up the gullible. The best lesson I ever learned in school was "do your own homework."

The best analysis of F911 so far is Louis Menand's article called "Nanuk and me" in the current issue of the New Yorker. The article gives a good overview of the tradition of documentaries.

Basically, as I understand it:, it boils down to this.

Moore's film makes Bush, his administration and his policies look real bad. That's a fact.

Now depending on your politics, you will either enjoy or be infuriated because you already beleive either
Bush looks bad because he is bad
Bush looks bad because Michael Moore and his ilk are bad.
So much for the politics of the film.

As a documentary however, Menand claims that all the criticism about the deliberate bias of the film is true. But that is a moot point because that is implied in the very nature of all documentaries. Where the film is problematic is he message. Namerly that Moore is a populist who reduces everything to a message that The Rich screw the poor. Most agree that this is a unsatisfying explanation of the issues..

Where the film works as a documentary on the other hand is that we see images that we've never seen. More to the point, we see images that we sense we are not meant to see. That is the ultimate goal of a documentary and it works well in F911.

Finally, movies influence but they do not change our convictions if we had some to begin with.
It's still only a movie.

I think this is a step towards getting Bush outta there, FINALLY. I don't know about you guys but it seems like G. W. Bush has been in office for entirely too long. Besides our economy being aweful which was a bit expected we have a huge deficit, have lost way too many lives, are out of jobs, gas prices are RIDICULOUS and we all know that Bush has lots of oil wells. I mean this guy doesn't care about the american people he is just psycho. Sure Clinton was a bad moral example but let's face it at least the man had some economics knowledge. You know if the people are bad and corrupt than the leaders are going to be bad and corrupt because the leaders come from amongst the people. And you know what I am an arab muslim american. My mom is arab and my father is white european decent. Believe me, muslims believe that if you are agressors than God will be the same on the Day of Judgement towards you. And suicide just like in Christianity is totally shunned. They will definately go to hell. Also, arabs don't hate americans. In fact all of them want to come here. And in morroco the people are still watching Mickey mouse and thinking wow america is so awesome. I mean why is it that the media ALWAYS shows islam and muslims as bad people when thousands of americans and people world wide are becoming muslim. And another thing if you want to see real islam. Check out Mekka in Saudi Arabia. People from all over the world black, white, indian, hispanic, etc. all praying together. In Islam there is no racism either if you want to check out real islam go to www.islamtoday.com or www.islamtomorrow.com. Thankyou for reading my comments.

Noora, Just where are you coming from??? You state, "Besides our economy being aweful which was a bit expected we have a huge deficit, have lost way too many lives, are out of jobs, gas prices are RIDICULOUS and we all know that Bush has lots of oil wells." Where were you on September 11, 2001?? America is recovering nicely considering such a catastrophic event on our financial district and subsequent economic tremors. Much thanks go to the leadership and preserverance of President Bush. You and the Democrats would mislead people to think that it didn't happen.

Oil wells? The Arab countries own most of the oil wells.

You state, "You know if the people are bad and corrupt than the leaders are going to be bad and corrupt because the leaders come from amongst the people." You infer that the American People are bad and corrupt; and at the same time infer that President Bush is bad and corrupt. Then you claim to be "an arab muslim american" and that "arabs don't hate americans." As "an Arab Muslim American" you must believe that you yourself are bad and corrupt. I agree with you on the point, that "arabs don't hate Americans." You however harbor much hate, which is very sad. As a Muslim woman, you are very lucky to be an American, where you do have access to basic freedoms including speech.

Islam is a great religion as are other great religions. The basic values in each of these great religions have the same foundations. A few years ago, Pope John Paul had a meeting of the major religions including Islam to share in these mutually shared basic values. It was a wonderful moment.

There have been extremists in all religions through history who have misled people to do terrible things. Estremists are racists. Islam is not immune from racism. The only thing racists have in common is hate. The terrorists are motivated by hate. Good Muslims must help control Muslim extremists, who distort the truth of Islam. The war on Terrorism is a war on terrorists. It is not a war on Islam.

I pray that Allah (God) will provide you guidance through this difficult period in your life and show you the light of his truth.

Hey John. Pick on someone else. "America is recovering thanks to the leadership of George Bush!?" John where are you coming from? How can anybody still be fooled by Bush when you read from serious minded professionals observers in all areas of public policy.: Economists, the military, the diplomatic service, Law enforcement agencies, Social policy, the enviromnment and even ( the latest) Scientists are beginning to protest an unprecedented big brother ideological intrusion into the very scientific method. All are nearly unanimous in denoucncing this admistration as the most flagrant Say-one-thing-Do the-opposite.double-speak government in American History.

This Administration has succeded in transforming the largest budeget surplus into the largest deficit while presenting itself as anti-government spending fiscal conservatives!!. It has managed to squander half a century of diplomatic capital, strain alliances, foster anti-americanism and greatly weaken American influence, credibility and power under a banner of America Strong!!. It launched the first non-denfensive American war under the name of Iraqui Freedom! And the most far-reaching system of government surveillance and domestic espionage under the name Patriot Act!. It is recognised as the most elitist, secretive and vindictive administration ever and its servile.draft -dogging east-coast patrician president somehow convinces people that he is a plain-talkin, straight -shootin Texan.patriot. The most radical tradition-breaking agendas are being proposed under the the name of Conservatism.! Wake up Man.! The evidence goes on and on. There is no area where America has not been weaken, divided,looted in the last four years. But I know this does not matter. For the supporters of Bush, no amount of evidence will change their mind because they judge Bush and themselves s only on their purity.of their words and stated intentions - not the results of their actions: Ideological right-wing POLITICAL CORRECTNESS is all that matters. Just like the communists of old, who justified everything because they had to defend the State against Bourgeois counter-revolutionaries, you guys can only justify Bush as against an imagined army of lefty loonies and terrorists hiding in every corner. different words, same results., This much is clear: in the face of what is going on, a patriotic american can now only be a dissident.

In any group of "serious minded professionals observers in all areas of public policy.: Economists, the military, the diplomatic service, Law enforcement agencies, Social policy, the enviromnment and even ( the latest) Scientists" you will find those who state the glass is half full and those who state the glass is half empty. A few months ago after a very successful month of an increase of over 300,000 jobs, the next month had only 112,000 jobs. Those "serious minded professionals" committed to Kerry attempted to downplay the STILL positive movement. There have been over a million jobs over the past year.

I have also noticed the same "serious minded professionals" have avoided speaking about the number (500,000) of new small businesses created since the implementation of the Bush tax cuts. Did you know that small businesses are the greatest employer group in the United States? Hmmm. Probably not. The economy is improving... or have you forgotten the economic blow from 911 and the recession that followed. Over a million jobs were lost in the aftermath of 911. This was probably the briefest recession in history. Did you know that home ownership is up as a greater percentage of Americans now own their home than at any time in history? Hmmm. Probably not. Home ownership is part of the American dream. I personally don't own one yet, but I am gainfully employed and working on it.

Let me see...where were we. Ah yes. Largest deficit. Take this figure and take it in relation to GNP (Gross National Product). It is not out of whack as with other presidents. Our economy has grown at the same time. With 911, the war on Iraq,"No child left behind," etc. of course you would expect increased costs. This is called reality and yes there are costs attached to them. Did you know that? Hmmm. Probably not.

Okay, we are now at "squander half a century of diplomatic capital, strain alliances, foster anti-americanism and greatly weaken American influence, credibility and power under a banner of America Strong." Those countries who were against the War on Iraq are under question in the U.N. (United Nations)"Oil for Food" program. I am curious and eager to see the results of the ensuing audit of this corrupted program. Was it squandering on the part of President Bush or was it really that these countries did not want their gravy bowl taken away and their selfishness exposed. I think the Kerry people are doing a good job of fostering "anti-Americanism" themselves. Just look at the rhetoric including conspiracy theories. The 911 Commission results have debunked much of Michael Moore's Farenheit 911. He is the biggest liar and has been proven so. Of course he is laughing all the way to the bank and I bet he probably got your money, because you have allowed yourself to be gullible.

Okay...we are now at "non-denfensive American war under the name of Iraqui Freedom." Do you remember the WMD's (Weapons of Mass Destruction)? After the 1991 war, the U.N. (United Nations) took an inventory of Saddam's WMD's (Weapons of Mass Destruction). Not all of them were accouncted for, not to mention his capability to go down that road again. Let's hope that the missing WMD's (Weapons of Mass Destruction) are found intact or destroyed. Did you know that for ten years, Saddam was playing hide & seek with the U.N. (United Nations)weapons inspectors? Hmmm. Probably not. The threat (Saddam) is behind bars and will face the the courts of justice for the atrocities he inflicted on the region and his own people. Did you know that Saddam was giving $25,000 to the families of poor Palestinian people to encourage their members to become suicide bombers? Hmmm. Probably not. Would you wait until he sent them our way? I will leave that up to you. I do not want to wait for another 911 to happen. You may be looking forward to it. With his actions and intentions, Saddam was a Terrorist and that is good enough for me. The Iraqis are now free to form their new government and freely choose their own leaders. I think "Iraqi Freedom" was quite appropriate.

Let me see... "most far-reaching system of government surveillance and domestic espionage under the name Patriot Act." This is one of those glass half full, half empty items. Am I willing to go through security or provide information to feel safer. Absolutely. I have nothing to hide. Only those who have something to hide should be afraid. Did you know we are having an unconventional war with terrorism? Hmmm. Probably not. The terrorists don't follow the rules of engagement? Hence, unconventional.

Okay..., we are at "most elitist, secretive and vindictive administration ever and its servile.draft -dogging east-coast patrician president." Are you talking about Bill Clinton? This is more descriptive of Clinton. Clinton was the draft dodger. I bet you didn't know that President Bush was in the National Guard, which the last time I checked was still considered military service. I dare you to question any National Guard member, that they are not in military service to the nation. For you own sake, I beg you not to. Ignorance can be painful.

I believe you are not a lefty loony nor a terrorist. I believe you have been misled. Like you, I also had doubts about President Bush, questioned the war, etc. That prompted me to ask questions, research the issues, and do lots of reading of material authored by the "serious minded professionals observers in all areas of public policy.: Economists, the military, the diplomatic service, Law enforcement agencies, Social policy, the enviromnment and even ( the latest) Scientists." While my reading and research will be ongoing, at this point my vision is much clearer now than it was when I began. There are still stones to look under. There is so much to learn.

No one knows everything. Considering the information provided to President Bush, he made the best decision accordingly. As we are in an election year, the rhetoric, conspiracy theories and spin of the truth will be very tempting to incite your emotions. Take a deep breath. do your own research on those issues that are important to you and the country. It won't hurt and you will be able to see through the BS (bullshit). Ha ha. I'm sorry. I had to do that.

Now, laugh it off. I believe you are a patriotic American. We live in a GREAT country where we have freedom of speech and can agree to disagree without detriment.

The 10 million (40% women) Afgans who have registered to vote and the millions of Iragi's who will taste their first unadulterated election provide much hope for the future. America has freed more people than any other country in the history of the world. We have a lot to be proud off.

We actually have much in common, we both love this country are willing to defend it. I wish you good fortune.

Johns comment above is a precise illustration of the point in the previous message i.e. how public issues are debased by the wooden language of an official party line. Let's put aside the patronizing tone of John's missive with his smug "Betcha you didn't know this" comments. Indeed how could I not know it.- Everything you say is constantly repeated in nearly all popular media venues like the drone of a mantra .

Before I explain what I mean by this, I think I should make one thing clear. I am not a patriotic American. Mainly because I am not American. Visited every part of your country often but have never resided there. You are not the only one to assume this. Since I'm white and speak fluent American English without an accent, Americans always assume that I am native-born so I know America as intimately as you do. When I am abroad however and speaking my first language which is not English, nobody mistakes me for an American consequently I get the real dope on how America is perceived from the outside. I am grateful for having this unique insider/outsider perspective and it is a major factor in what I perceive to the scary recent developments in American politics. Also I should mention that I am Christian, political conservative .and a very strong believer in the proposition that language and history is the primary foundation of an educated and free citizenry. (as opposed to dictatorships where everybody is taught that words and events mean their opposite).

Everything mentioned in your response is - I believe - an expression of a growing and relatively recent officially-sanctioned and fixed ideology whose effect is to subvert the true and traditional meaning of political Conservatism and Freedom ( and Christian values) to sanction policies which are in fact totally contrary to those values. It's not the first time this happens in history and I know it's a tough pill to swallow but I hope that what I say here will ring a bell as to what is actually being discussed outside the US.

Essentially this new and disturbing American ideology which marks a radical departure from American traditions is defended by 2 falsehoods which now frame nearly all political discussions within the US

The first is that any criticism of the current policies is categorically confined into a democrat Vs republican, liberal Vs conservative straight jacket.. Never mind that there are virtually no difference of substance between the two parties, anybody that questions the current administration is automatically pegged and discounted as a tree-hugging, wishy-washy, Clinton nostalgic, Kerry-loving liberal.

Moreover the term "liberal" - which refers to the 400 hundred-year current of liberty which has been painstakingly fought for since the European Enlightenment and championed by America been has been successfully destroyed in the US by Orwellian double-speak . Through unrelenting repetition in venues like American AM radio, that noble word has come to mean something akin to sleaze, mental retardation and even the root of all evil. That message was even bought by the left who have completely abdicated their tradition to the fringe loons. It's hard have a discussion about Motherhood with someone who has been lead to believe that the word "mother" means "Hoar" (It is also interesting to note that when it comes to other countries, even the most right-wing Americans only like to deal with foreign "moderates" i.e. "liberals" because everybody hates right-wing extremists of other countries which says a lot.)

The public space for any ideas outside of this narrow red-blue box has been erased not only from American discourse but even from American history. For instance, how many people remember that in the twenties and thirties when Middle-America communities were being devastated by the "savage capitalism" of Wall street banks, the citizens fought back hard,- in a lefty kind of way- organized unions and political action, pressed for legislation and accountability and earned their prosperity. Have you been to Kansas lately, I was shocked by the landscape from what it was 15 years ago. The heartland looks gutted. Yet when I talked to the folks there, they were eerily passive even supportive of what is happening to them because -get this! - they were sold the idea that economic or environmental difficulties are somehow due to "public moral decay" fostered by a non-existent "liberal elite and media". This effectively means that you should question how the powers-that-be interpret and implement their version of "Capitalist Free Enterprise" well, that puts you in the same camp as welfare mothers ,abortionists and gay marriage, doesn't it. Bubba.. Previous generations would have never fallen for that and I very rarely encounter Americans who can now think outside that box.

That box is sustained by a an economic dogma that Privatization is by definition Good. and anything public is bad. Why is it that when Americans reflect on their proudest achievements - the Moon walk,, winning World-War II, the settling of the West, the prosperity of the 50's, their military technology they fail to notice that they were all great government programs. But now , instead of debating the merits of Good Vs bad public programs- and its a tough call because they are many examples of both.- the discussion has been effectively muted by an entrenched and elitist establishment that incredibly, has managed to propagate only one idea: namely that public money good for them but bad for the people.( It makes us lazy!) Think about it, Is there any other way to describe what underpins the entire economic philosophy of the Bush administration . Not only that, it also has the gall to present itself as if it were a bunch of regular guys fighting to get the government off the peoples back. What everyone else in the rest of the World sees in Bush is exactly the opposite i.e. a n increasingly tightly-knit ruling corporate|government collusion that is doing everything it can to get the American people off its back.

There is no greater lie told to the American people that America has enemies because they hate your democracy and freedom. Generally the world likes and trusts the American people as a whole and views American democracy as the guarantor against the abusive use of the military industrial complex.. What mostly scares the world about the invasion of Iraq is that the American military is no longer seen as the citizen army of WWII but an increasingly privatized mercenary force for hire. This process was already begun in 1991 when the Kuwaitis and Saudis literally bought the American Intervention. The bottom-line on Iraq is that flag-waiving aside, The War clearly and absolutely serves no common public American interest, let alone the needs of the Iraqi people. It was planned and waged to serve the needs of a very small and specific coalition of interests that happen to reside in America and other countries. But again, you are not free to challenge this because the Bush administration frames the issue in such a way that whatever they do, they are the righteous kick-ass defenders of the American Republic. You cannot challenge them without automatically being branded as somehow advocating the "liberal" weakening of America. When the recent discovery of Al Qaeda's files makes it very clear that 9/11 and terrorism in general is solely connected to America's involvement in the Israel-palestinain war, that key fact is completely absent even in Michael Moores movie. One cannot argue with the removal of Saddam Hussein. But this was only incidental not policy because the Bush government still supports several other brutal dictators. that suit its interest.

A this point, to believe that Iraq threatened America or that America freed Iraq as it freed France in 1944 is deliberate and malicious self-deception. A freed people do not revolt and make no mistake, it's a bona fide popular insurrection of the Iraqi people who are resisting the Bremer agenda to privatize (i.e.: sell off ) all Iraqi public assets under a puppet government. What! You dare question this self-serving economic agenda we are trying to shove down your throat? Well that means that you are against Freedom and Democracy Bubba and that you must be a "terrorist" which we define as an illegal unconventional alien to which all international rules like the Geneva Conventions don't apply.. This is exactly what the Founding Fathers warned to be vigilant about.

Finally, why do I say that the policies of the Bush administration are fundamentally contrary to Christian values and the foundations upon which the American Republic stand. The cornerstone of both is the notion of original sin - or in secular terms the notion that power corrupts. "IN GOD WE TRUST means: "In no man we should trust". Most Americans in this generation have been led believe that righteousness is somehow caused by the very fact of being born American or embodied in the State as opposed to being derived from responsible choices. If I believe that my words and self-image make me righteous then I am blinded to my own propensity for Evil. This is the most pernicious belief that is currently infecting the American body politic and your response like the speeches of Bush and his supporters are rife with that assumption. It says America and its leadership is by definition good and righteous no matter what it does therefore any opposition is necessarily morally suspect and enemy-feeding.. Other countries pursue power and selfish national interests, the American State only pursues lofty humanitarian ideals. You are either for us or against decency and humanity. That in a nutshell is what defines your current government and the propaganda machine that sustains it. That is what is feeding the swelling wave of anti-Americanism. Carl Jung said it best when he said:

"WE DO NOT ATTAIN ENLIGHTENEMENT BY IMAGINING OURSELVES AS ANGELS OF LIGHT BUT BY MAKING THE DARKNESS CONCIOUS.

When it comes to the Bush administration, it is not a question of the glass being half full or half empty. Like in radical Islamist fundamentalism, the debaisng of language and history is causing American public discourse to become increasingly unable to shed light on its own darkness..

JLR. You apparently don't have a sense of humor. Here we go again."public issues are debased by the wooden language of an official party line." Considering that I don't belong to any political party, I find this amusing. I have found positions on various issues appealing from a variety of political groups including the Democrats, Republicans, Green Party, Libertarians, etc. 911 changed everything for me. How can one enjoy or pursue all other issues when your country is under siege? I find this a matter of national priority. Yes, for once the President's national priority fits mine. So there is no "officially sanctioned and fixed ideology." It is just my view, hence I implore everyone to do their own research and not believe everything they read or see, hence to filter the rhetoric and distortions. We can agree to disagree without detriment. That is the beauty of America and that is not patronizing.

You note that you are "white and speak fluent American English without an accent, Americans always assume that I am native-born so I know America as intimately as you do." You have exposed a flaw. My grand parents were killed during WWII; my parents became U.S. citizens in 1948 like millions of others who were displaced. I was born in the USA. I am not white, I do believe in God and English is not my first language. You will never know America as intimately as me; because the bottom-line is that you are not American. No matter how well you speak English, you will never fully have the American experience until you become one. I thought you were American. You thought I was Republican. TOUCHÉ!

You note that you are "Christian, political conservative and a very strong believer in the proposition that language and history is the primary foundation of an educated and free citizenry (as opposed to dictatorships where everybody is taught that words and events mean their opposite)." It is good to know that you are Christian, though it would not bother me one iota if you were Muslim, Hindi, Buddhist or Shinto. I consider myself an independent, as I have voted for the person not the party. I am a fiscal conservative (pay your bills). I believe that every able bodied individual has a responsibility to work and be a contributing member of society (I don't believe in affirmative action as I believe it does not treat people with the dignity nor provide people the motivation to succeed without a crutch); I believe in domestic partnership rights (including gay rights), I am Pro-Choice (only that people need to choose to be responsible for their actions, with the scourge of AIDS/HIV, people need to wake up, I believe that abortions should be allowable in the case of rape and/or incest). I recycle or reuse everything and I regularly participate in environmental events. I plant trees. I personally give 20% of my earnings to various charities (local and international. I volunteer to help troubled youth. I could go on, but I think you get the picture. I agree with you on the proposition of language and history. Isn't it a wonderful, that we can find something in common?

I, like yourself have traveled extensively and maybe unlike you blend into some of these communities because I am not white. I also listen and "get the real dope on how America is perceived from the outside." They see your skin color, listen to your attitude and tell you what you probably want to hear. Then again you may just hang out with people who are just "anti-American." I have friends from all over the world, many countries, faiths, and perspectives. When we get together, there are things we agree and disagree with. That is the beauty of our friendships. At the end of the day, we still respect each other. No two friends could ever always agree. That would be boring. Overall, they see America, while it still has its imperfections as a growing nation (it has overcome its challenges over the centuries with slavery and women's rights, interracial marriage, etc.) and it has many more ahead of it, it has proven itself to be the most generous of any nation, whether it be the United Nations or the numerous countries that comprises it, as well as the numerous causes that abound. For my friends around the world, America provides endless opportunities and possibilities (that is why you keep coming back). However, it is also a strong nation, when attacked, it will defend itself. The terrorists attacked U.S Embassies in Africa (killing hundreds of innocent people) and bombed the towers in New York in the 1990's (killing and/or injuring hundreds). On 9/11, terrorists again hit the United States killing over 3,000 innocent people. With the attack on 9/11, the United States entered the War on Terror, just like it was pulled into WWII by the attack on Pearl Harbor, Hawaii. You cannot expect President Bush and America to stand idly by.

Terrorists have been have been operating for decades.from the killing of the Olympic athletes in Germany in 1972 to the Sarin gas attack in the subways of Tokyo. There are too many to mention throughout the world. When would you expect the U.S. to defend itself? As I mentioned in a previous submission, Saddam financed terrorism. He was also noted to have communicated with Al Quaeda. There was also a terrorist training camp in Iraq affiliated with Al Quaeda. Al Quaeda operatives were given safe haven and aid in Iraq. To me, Iraq was part of the War on Terrorism. Libya came clean on its WMD's. They saw the writing on the wall and sought a diplomatic solution. Some countries are taking the diplomatic angle. Dialogue is still ongoing with Iran, North Korea, etc. The diplomatic angle was pursued for ten years with Saddam Hussein after the 1991 conflict with no positive result. It was time to take him out and free the people of Iraq.

We are at."new and disturbing American ideology which marks a radical departure from American traditions is defended by 2 falsehoods which now frame nearly all political discussions within the US." You note, "The first is that any criticism of the current policies is categorically confined into a democrat Vs republican, liberal Vs conservative straight jacket." This is too simplistic, which is probably why you believe it. We live in a very complex society. We have Gay Republicans and Straight Democrats who believe in welfare reform. This is America. We are a melting pot of cultures, people and perspectives. This is the beauty of America. This is what makes it GREAT. Where else can we have such dynamic debate on any and all issues? Your second point was nowhere to be found.

We are now at. "There is no greater lie told to the American people that America has enemies because they hate your democracy and freedom. Generally the world likes and trusts the American people as a whole and views American democracy as the guarantor against the abusive use of the military industrial complex. What mostly scares the world about the invasion of Iraq is that the American military is no longer seen as the citizen army of WWII but an increasingly privatized mercenary force for hire. This process was already begun in 1991 when the Kuwaitis and Saudis literally bought the American Intervention.. The War clearly and absolutely serves no common public American interest, let alone the needs of the Iraqi people." Please read the paragraph above regarding the attack on 911 and subsequent notes. The war in 1991 was done by International Law and agreement. Yes, the Kuwaitis and Saudis provided funds, but so did the the United States, Japan and other countries. You obviously have read more distorted information. The War on Terrorism is an unconventional one, because the terrorists don't follow rules of engagement. The coalition is still a citizen army, made up of soldiers from many countries including Iraqis. Once the new elected Iraqi government is able to step in, you will be changing your tune. The containment of places that harbor and finance terrorists, are in the public interest of the American people. Terrorists attacked us and we have a right to defend ourselves and pursue those who perpetuate or provide refuge to it. Saddam in Iraq fit the bill and the people of Iraq are better for it. In time, history will provide for it, probably against your objections. Of course you are always welcome to write your own version.

You note that, "the recent discovery of Al Qaeda's files makes it very clear that 9/11 and terrorism in general is solely connected to America's involvement in the Israel-Palestinian war." This is interesting, since under President Bush, America has been pushing for a Palestinian State. Israel even agreed to it, however the suicide bombers kept coming, financed by Saddam in Iraq and others. This is where extremists have misled people. The Israelis and Palestinians have been having a sibling rivalry for centuries. They are from the same root. Sibling rivalries are always difficult to arbitrate. Suicide bombers and fences make it all that much more difficult.

You also note "to believe that Iraq threatened America or that America freed Iraq as it freed France in 1944 is deliberate and malicious self-deception." Saddam was a continuing threat and needed to be dealt with, as the diplomatic solution was not working. Ten years was more than generous. The U.N resolution from the conflict of 1991 provides for the use of force. After 911, Saddam's continued actions put him in contradiction with the U.N. resolution and his activities put him on the terrorism radar. Iraq has been ruled for decades by a dictator who supported terrorism and used WMD's on his own people. The mass graves speak for themselves. The WMD's have not all been accounted for. The defeat of Saddam was swift. The people of Iraq have an interim governing council until they have their first elections. While anyone can question the make-up of the council, they have a great challenge ahead of them to hold their first free elections. Ayatolla Sisteni is back in Iraq and has brought Cleric Muktada Al Sadr back into line. The problem is primarily from the remnants of Saddam's regime and the terrorists such as Zaquowri (sp). These people want the power back and are willing to kill Iraqis to do it. Of course, it is no problem for them, because they have been doing it for decades. The people of Iraq now have an opportunity, like Afghanistan to determine their own future. America must stand fast with the coalition to assist accordingly. If you have followed the news, the Iraqi Forces have been taking the lead on many of the enforcement activities. As the Iraqi Force is strengthened and grown, they will take on more and the coalition forces will move on. As in France, in 1944, the U.S. will move on. In any conflict you will always have peaceniks and naysayers, no matter how right or noble the effort. America is willing to make the sacrifices necessary to pursue a safer world, even if you are willing to sit on the sidelines and bicker. Others are bitter because of their inadequacies and self-loathing.

You finally note, "The policies of the Bush administration are fundamentally contrary to Christian values and the foundations upon which the American Republic stand. The cornerstone of both is the notion of original sin - or in secular terms the notion that power corrupts. "IN GOD WE TRUST means: "In no man we should trust"." The policies of the Bush Administration are in line with the times. America was attacked on 9/11/2001, his response as Commander in Chief was appropriate as it was appropriate in WWII at Pearl Harbor, Hawaii. Being Christian does not mean that you need to sit idly by and get massacred. America is made up of all religions. President Bush has the responsibility to defend the people. Instead of waiting for the terrorists to come back, President Bush and America has taken the offensive on terrorism and countries throughout the world are helping to keep the terrorists in check. America is not alone. Terrorists have attacked people of almost all nations on every continent throughout the world. America is taking a lead on this war, and is not alone. The only people who seem to be complaining are those who either got their cookie jar taken away or in one way or another benefit or are benefactors of terrorism. Why are you complaining?

You note that "Most Americans in this generation have been led believe that righteousness is somehow caused by the very fact of being born American or embodied in the State as opposed to being derived from responsible choices. If I believe that my words and self-image make me righteous then I am blinded to my own propensity for Evil. This is the most pernicious belief that is currently infecting the American body politic and your response like the speeches of Bush and his supporters are rife with that assumption. It says America and its leadership is by definition good and righteous no matter what it does therefore any opposition is necessarily morally suspect and enemy feeding. Other countries pursue power and selfish national interests; the American State only pursues lofty humanitarian ideals. You are either for us or against decency and humanity. In a nutshell is what defines your current government and the propaganda machine that sustains it. That is what is feeding the swelling wave of anti-Americanism." It sounds like you are bitter, because you know deep down, that America was right on this one. The war on Terror should not be taken lightly. In the war on Terror, everyone must take a stand. Look at France and the two French journalists who have been kidnapped by Muslim extremists in Iraq. Did they think that they were immune? It was foolish of them to think so. Just like it was foolish for them to think the Maginot Line would hold back the Nazis.

I for one would state that America is imperfect, as it does not abide by all my ideals, wants and desires as it does not abide by yours. America is full of people who all have their own ideals, wants and desires. The beauty of it all is that we have a system that provides for the endless possibilities and opportunities. E Pluribus Unum (Out of many, One). Where else can an immigrant from Austria become an actor, businessman and eventually the Governor of California? America is the land of opportunities, which is why you keep coming back. Enjoy it for what it is, because it is America and yes there is a light on, even for you.

Reasons why I am not voting for George W. Bush

1. George Bush approved the use of depleted uranium shells, and the use of them is exposing our troops to nuclear radiation. During the gulf war DU was used, and the side effects of the radiation are known today as the Gulf war syndrome.
2. During September 11 and the few days afterward, George Bush took shelter in a bunker. One of the jobs of the president (or any leader) is to keep composure in the most chaotic of circumstances. A leader should not show fear even in the face of incredible danger. On September 11th a good leader would insist on staying in the Whitehouse at the last possible minute.
3. George Bush has made no attempt to enforce the border between Mexico and the US. People from many different countries (including Middle Eastern countries) are now flying to Mexico and then illegally crossing the border. If your a terrorist why go through America's airport security when you can go through the Mexican airport security (Mexican security is pathetic by the way), and just cross the one of the largest unprotected country barriers in the world.
4. George Bush has cut police funding, why the hell would you do this with the threat of terrorists.
5. George Bush is attempting to use a conventional army against a force of guerilla fighters. Anyone who has studied a little history will tell you this is a bad idea. This type of war is known as a war of attrition. It happened when Rome attacked the woad warriors of England, it happened when the British tried to take back the American colonies, it happened when we attacked Viet Nam, and it will happen in Iraq. Our forces will be slowly demoralized over a course of several years, and we will abruptly leave Iraq not quite sure who the winner was, but in time Iraq will appoint some new tribal warlord like Saddam who will take power and revert to a government that reflects islamic beliefs.
6. George Bush made no attempts to open up diplomatic relations between the Middle East and the U.S. to the time between his inauguration and September 11th.
7. George Bush has taken more vacations than any other president.
8. George Bush uses Orwellian double speak to describe the laws that he passes. For instance: The clean air act gives concessions to companies to pollute more.
9. George Bush is a fundamentalist christian, which means he believes in "the rapture." I have noticed that anyone he actually believes that crap is either a psycho, hick, or incredibly stupid.
10. September 11th happened under his presidency.

To top it off George Bush has made many bad military decisions that I will not go into or even bother to count.
If you have any doubts about the above information just go to the library and search some newspapers, or search google.

John
I do owe you an apology. This is the first time I've chatted online like this. I know you are a real person with all the complexity and ambiguities. that implies. Yes, I did very consciously construct you as a stereotype because I just wanted to vent.. I am grateful that this dialogue has brought attention to the fact that yes I am quite bitter. In fact, yes . I'm pissed off big time.

I'm still pissed at the f.9/11 high-jackers and f.Islamist fundamentalists

I'm pissed at Bush and hate him with a passion for the smug self-righteous way he persists in making a bad situations worse.

I'm pissed at Kerry for not having the guts to package himself as something other than a neocon clone.

I'm pissed at what's happening to the US. At how I get searched all the time now at the airport. How I get fingerprinted -yes fingerprinted!- at US Banks. At how I see the military, police and armed security guards everywhere and how everybody seems to think that is normal.

I'm pissed at this creepy feeling of fear and paranoia which now seems to permeate every corner of the US, That wasn't there before. I'm pissed at my cowardly American business partners who tell me to shut up and not talk politics because its bad for business. That's new too.. I'm pissed that the last time I was there I had a severe infection and was told by a doctor to go die on the street ( not those words) because I didn't have any money

I'm pissed at the damned Israelis and Palestinians and how their they are drawing everybody into their f.g war

I'm pissed at all the Arabs I know ( I happen to live in neighborhood that is full of them) that are always blaming everything on the Jews and the way they say they control the US.

I'm pissed at Jews and Americans in general who have effectively censored the fact that you cannot even begin to address the problem of terrorism without taking a hard look at why the US is supporting Israel. Even Michael More didn't have the guts to even mention that central issue. I'm pissed that one side calls their violence retaliation while the other's is terrorism. I'm pissed that Americans are duped by that deceit.

I'm pissed at fundamentalist of all stripes who can't make the difference between the spirit of God and rank Nationalism.

I'm pissed at being called a degenerate liberal by Americans and a right-wing American fascist apologist by every one else.

I'm pissed at how there was a world-wide rally behind the US after 9/11 for a concerted police action against the growing problem of terrorism and unanimous cheer for the removal of that insane Taliban Government and how Bush and his f. neocons then went and screwed up everything by this insane invasion of Iraq.

I'm pissed that all these Iraqis and American soldiers got maimed and killed for something that is worse than a crime - a dumb move.

I'm pissed at Michael Moore and some of the sleaszeball stuff in his movie and even more pissed at the Moore haters who don't have the spine to face up to some of the facts that are in his movie.

I'm pissed at all the Right wing American media from Limbaugh to O' Reilly to Fox news and how they hold the exact same ignorant opinions as their european and Islamic counterparts. Look, is it just me or is anyone else out there noticing that Liberals or moderates in every country have diverse opinions and all get along while Right-wingers of all nationalities sound exactly the same and all hate each other. Maybe you have to speak at least one other language to really appreciate this.

I'm pissed at the American left whose stuck in some sixtish time -warp and have managed to give dissent itself an embarrassing connotation.

And mostly I'm pissed at myself for spending all this time on the keyboard pontificating and complaining as if what I say matters a rat's ass.

Whew, there's a lot more but enough all ready. Whatever the case may be and surprisingly I am not pissed at you John. As you are, I am sure, a fellow confused sufferer just like myself.

Ps. my name is jean-Louis and I am French-Canadian Oh yea and I"m very pissed at Americans who cant f..g grasp that while I speak French I am nine generations removed from France.

JLR,apology accepted. You are a good man for it. I extend mine as well as I may have also offended you unintentionally. The world has just gotten a little smaller as we have both learned from the experience. Dialogue and diplomacy are important, but we must also be willing to back it up with action. Iraq was one of those cases.

The world is experiencing much stress, because our comfort zones have been invaded. It has caused people (all over the world) to become emotional and some have become irrational. Just take a look at Maxim's notes, who can't even get his Bush's nor his Bush facts straight. With the Michael Moores and others from both sides of the issues, who fan the flames with their distortion of the facts. I am glad that this election will be decided by Independent voters.

I have very good friends in Canada and have visited them as well. We keep in touch regularly. You have a beautiful country with very warm people despite a very cold (weatherwise) country. Brrrr.

Have faith and pray for peace. Bon Chance Mon Ami.

What the hell. What facts did I not get straight?! By the way I am an independent voter, Ill vote for however I think will do a better job. I dont belong to a party because I dont have a blind loyalty to either side. Last election I voted for Bush because I thought that his economic plan was better, and I actually still think its better. However Bush made the same empty promises last election and still has nothing to show for it. He keeps America in a state of fear, and his military strategy is terrible. You tell me some GOOD reasons to vote for bush and ill do it, and ill even get my family to vote for him. Don't give me any crap that you've heard repeated. I want clear facts that I can look up, because I need proof.

LoL i think that JLR and john are the same guy! You guys both give long ass responses and you both quickly apologize. WTF!!! Keep in mind this is a discussion about Mr. Moores film not for everyones issues to be vented or whatever. And Maxim i do think that you are correct about most of your reasons, except I don't know about him taking the most vactions of any other president. SO what if he has! with modern technology he doesn't have to be "at the office" to do work. ANYWAY... back to MM's film... the point of MM's film is that THERE WERE NO WEAPONS OF MASS DISTRUCTION, AND THERE WAS NO REASON TO GO TO WAR. I also have some questions: why is it that ppl think that Kerry will soemhow not be as good as the president when it comes to fighting the war on terror anyway? I hear the rightwingers say things like: " we are in the midst of a war and we shouldn't change horses midstream." But isn't now the best time to change presidents because al queda has already been suppressed by our forces in afganistan? Yes yes i know, al queda has cells everywhere, but if thats true then why are we in iraq? shouldn't we be sending some covert assasins or something to kill terrorists instead of invading one particullar country? :)

JOHN.

After coming to terms with the fact that I am angry, I realised that I am scared shitless. This war in Iraq is a very very worrysome thing. This is truly a very important election. I just reread all our dialogue. Its pretty good- a lot of important issues . I wonder if anybody else is following it.

However, I have to call you on something John. I greatly resent the statement that to be against the War in Iraq is to be "soft" on terrorism. NO NO NO NO. I'm sayiong the opposite: The way the war in Iraq was planned and conducted is actually feeding the problem. Everyone has got to take a position on this issue. I have and hope to hell I dont turn out to be proven right

Lets backtrack. A little

What is a terrorist. Basically the word just means someone that uses the terror of violence to achieve his ends, Too vague. We don't want to declare war on the Mafia or white supremacists,. and we don't want to crack down on the bars in New York and Boston who pass the cans to support the IRA. Nor do we want rewrite all the textbooks and call the French resistance, American revolutionaries, terrorists. No , we need something a little more specific. We sense there is a difference. We want something that clearly identifies those who perpetrated 9/11, bombed the USS Cole. and that bomb in Bali., stuff like that .. That is what is essentially weird about 9/11. It was no different in nature than the bombing of the Cole or for that matter Timothy McVeigh but it was so spectacular, so humiliating, so foreing, that calling it a crime did not suffice. It was an ACT OF WAR..

Okay, so who are the perpetrators of 9/11. Well its a group called Al Queda. But Al Queda is not the Empire of Japan or the USSR.. It is a faction within a faction within a faction that can be associated to a wider and extremely varied movement of militant islamic nationalists that are engaged in warfare in all sorts of conflicts most of which are inter-Arab.. Prior to 9/11, Americans accounted for something like 0.3% of world wide terrorism acts. Like most, Americans tend to interpret things in a self-centered way, Believe me up till a very short while ago, America was not the focus of Arab or any other wide movement of resentement

One of the main wellsprings of Al Queda was of course s the Afghan Mujahedeen, yes, the ones the US was harboring and paying to commit terrorists acts against the Soviets in Afghanistan and calling Freedom fighters. Well , now they turned against us and we have to respond- obviously .. so we want to identify those that specifically want to use violence against American targets and other members of that club we call the West. We don't give a shit about Tamils bombing Indian targets or African separatist or East Timorians.. So we are at War with those who are at war with us whoever that may be. Okay, I'll buy that but with extreme caution. War is a word we reserve for when a nation pits itself against another nation. Sure, we may use it figuratively as the War against poverty or Drugs but we are talking about the real term here - the one that sets all sorts of big scary State mechanisms and unpredictable things in motion here and abroad.

The first culprit was nice and obvious- the Taliban in Afghanistan. The world cheered. Here was one thing that all could agree upon - Christian evangelists, Scandinavian social-democrats, French philosophes, Chinese generals and Greepeace. That Taliban did support Al Qaeda and was an aberration and we as a planet unanimously declared it unworthy of the term sovereign government. The Taliban was depo