Film Roar

I dunno... I read the court papers that were posted as well as White Wolf's press releases and I have to agree that there is some sense to their claim... Granted, some of what they are claiming is classic folklore and mainstream mythos that White Wolf has adapted so it may possibly be public domain, but a lot of the story specific info is sadly similar to the short story that Nancy Collins' wrote and specific to the World of Darkness that White Wolf created...

Some of the points that White Wolf makes are a little flimsy, but a lot of their points are valid, at least based on the info that I have gotten without having seen the movie...

I am interested to see where this goes... I am still a big fan of White Wolf and I hope that they come out on top with this particular case...

why do people sue over something like this somebody made something great somebody else used that idea and made something better. waaahh. if you couldnt make the movie in the first place the go away.

Interesting, indeed. I agree - some of the points were reasonably valid - others just preposterous. A few were actually untrue, having just seen the movie tonight. I enjoyed it and thought it was very entertaining, though maybe loud and gruesome for some folk.

i watched it last night and loved it. white wolf should just be happy that something they came up with turned out this great.

Although similarities might exist, White Wolf is pratically saying they invented the whole idea of vampires. When many of their own original ideas are not really original at all, some even i think that they stole. Case in point Anne Rice's novels have certain characteristics that White Wolf points out. There also used to be a show on TV called "Forever Night" which also had some of these characteristics. But all in all Vampires and their myth have been around for thousands of years and i don't think that anyone can really capitalize and copyright their version of the myth. But without exact duplication of what they created i believe white wolf is just wasting a lot of time and money that could be used for better means.

I really enjoy White Wolf's games. I have really lost respect for them after this lawsuit. I heard of the claims they have made which are just so stupid. They claimed they own the whole "silver hurts werewolves" idea. White Wolf originated, when, the 80's? 1941, The Wolf Man, but I suppose The Wolf Man copied White Wolf too, right? (lol). Silver bullets is so basic with the werewolf myth.

I don't think anything in the lawsuit is valid. Every remark can be responded to with, "yeah, so did Lost Boys, Anne Rice, Bram Stoker, William Shakespear."
I loved what Whitewolf created (when it was just Vampire and Werewolf), but they weren't infringed upon by Underworld. I actually think Underworld went out of it's way to be non-WoD at points.

The point some of you seem to be missing is this: White Wolf pulled elements from varying mythos (both Vampire and Werewolf), combined them in a way that No One had before and created a "World" (of Darkness) around those elements. They are not claiming ownership of any particular piece of the myths surrounding Vampires or Werewolves, but they are protecting the property they created that pulls so many differing elements together in a unique way.

Also, if you had read the entirity of the brief, you would have noticed that the plot of the movie parallels almost exactly a previously published short story.

White Wolf is by no means claiming to own Vampires or Werewolves, but they do have a unique set of products and literature within the genre that has been exploited. If they don't take legal action to try to protect that property, they stand to lose any and all control over it.

I'm so tired of hacks thinking they know so much about trademark and copyright law. Try to understand exactly "why" WW is doing this and maybe you'll not sound so ignorant when posting to the various boards discussing this issue.

A new set of Underworld pictures just posted to:

Film Roar: Underworld Wolf and Fang Pictures

And includes some of the images that people have asked for.

Right, people see Underworld and instantly think of Romeo and Juliet. Quite frankly, I don't understand the concept of this applied to Underworld. Why? Simply because I've seen the movie twice so far and still, there is little to none of the romance that was clearly seen between Romeo and Juliet. Granted, its the whole "boy sees girl, girl sees boy, boy likes girl, girl likes boy" but there is hardly any evidence without leaping to conclusions that they love each other. Its an intrigue, from what I've seen, between Selene and Michael. She seems him as a new interest in dealing with the Lycans and then after his transformation, her morals allow her to protect him from the "big bad Viktor" who killed her family. I've read Nancy Collins' work before and I wasn't impressed. I still own her books but Selene has no resemblance to Sonja Blue, the whole mirror glasses chick with the multiple personalities running through her head. While I have not had the pleasure, or misfortune, of reading her short story, "Love of Monsters" I still confess that I didn't think of Collins' work at all until the whole Lawsuit affair developed. Instead, the first author I thought about was Laurell K. Hamilton and her Anita Blake series. Except, in the movie, Blake is a vampire.
Back to the whole, "commling between the species", its an old old plot line. There have always been movies and books in which its "forbidden" to mingle with so-so. Get over it people, its just another movie. I don't recall once where Selene and Michael did anything more than a few second kiss. That's not enough to suggest a Romeo and Juliet theme in which they run away from their families to live together. Selene realizes in the end of the movie she was betrayed by her coven leader Viktor and reacts as any scorned woman would. She murders him. If you note at the end of the movie, she doesn't kiss/hug/touch Michael at all. She simply picks up the locket that belonged to Lucian's wife Sonja and walks away. He looks a bit tired and unsatisfied as he turns to follow her. There wasn't much romance in this movie. In fact, I think the romance in the movie was strictly between the actress and the producer. -.^ Get my point?

White Wolf and Collins needs to back off the story line and stop complaining. Anne Rice could sue them for their vampire modelling. Hamilton could also sue them since I recall in her books, various species of vampires, some that could rot on command, some that enhanced the beauty of the turned, others that could fly, etc. White Wolf has various vampire species like the Bone Flowers, I'm pretty sure if Hamilton and Rice wanted to press the issue, they could sue. So what's the point of throwing a big ol' fit about the movie and its similarities? There aren't enough. The whole movie was mainly an informative prequel to the next in line, that and alot of action involved.

Okay. I have seen Underworld and I also do live action roleplaying with Vampire the masquerade. My comment is that Whitewolf does have a valid point for suing. My main point os the whole video game thingy. Vampire the mas. Bloodlines and Underworld: Bloodlines???? The least Sony could do is change that damn name!!! Yes Anne Rice wrote vamp novels, but she had no clans or "abilities" that only certain vamps could do. They all could do the same things when they were old enough. And yes White wolf did take things from Mythos but, he changed things around and I find that Underworld was too much like Whitewolf's ideas then could be put down to coincidence.

my computer freaked out when i was trying to post before, so i'll abbreviate and just state my point-- I liked the movie-- but the similarities between the plot, feel, and style of the Underworld are WAY too close to the Vampire world of WW for me to believe that the writers/producers were not directly and/or indirectly influenced by WW novels and sourcebooks

any time a movie is made about a comic book hero there are notes in the credits acknowledging marvel/dc/whoever and probably $$$ for said use as well--- the creators of Underworld need to come clean and acknowledge WW the same way

Oh come on, now...Perhaps the next lawsuit will be with Laurel Hamilton over the similarities between the Anita Blake series. This is hardly original territory.

this is crap! They cant sue. its unfair. like Bryan says its not like they invented vampires or werewolves! SHEESH! Theyre jus jealus cause they couldent think it up. Man theyre like babys with he stole my idea! If they win then bram stoker might as well sue them for using vampires in theyre games1
Rom

o and i know hes dead lol.

Anyways the movie rocked and i got to say i like white wolfs games but there bein unfair with this.underworld was a great movie they shouldent sue

O ya and for a boy named sue, sorry dude but i completely absolutley 100% surely DISAGREE with you!!! Basicly White wolf is jealus of underworld. They are tryin to make money like all companies. And if that means suing then thats what they are gonna do! I dont care what you say because they are being unfair. They didnt invent the whole silver hurting werewolves.

AND P.S. The moon shines from the suns light ao um how would the vampires survive lol. Great movie. Great site Leopoldo.

I just posted some info on the Underworld sequel at

Film Roar: Len Wiseman Talks About Underworld Sequel

What can we really expect in a world where political-correctness seems to ruin everything?

Seems that Webster would be suing everyone who speaks English for using their words now since White-wolf is claiming rights to the letter "V"...

Thank you i agree with you.

I thought I was done posting about Underworld on Geekroar.com, but popular demand asked for more pictures and I felt compelled to comply. Get your latest Underworld image fix at:

Film Roar: Last(?) Batch of Underworld Pictures

And see all the Underworld pictures compiled at:

Geekroar.com Gallery :: Pictures from Underworld

hey peeps. Check out my site and sign my guestbook.
www.freewebs.com/vampire_mafia/
~ram

I think a lot of you kids are missing the major points of the lawsuit.
1. WW is not claiming to have invented Vampires or Werewolves. They are claiming that Underworld almost exactly follows a short story published by them before. And let's face it, how many stories are there outside of White Wolf that involve Vampires and Werewolves in a war?
2. Did someone mention that another of Nancy Collins' books had a character named Sonja? Hmmm, is it mere coincidence that Viktor's daughter is named Sonja? It's obvious the writers had read the story.
3. There is nothing in the lawsuit mentioning Romeo and Juliet. Where the heck did you get that this was about the romance? Which bring up another point... was Anita Blake humna in love with a Werewolf? If so, then how is this an infringement on the rights of WW and their WoD creation.

Whitewolf's suit revolves around the similiarities of Underworld and a short story published by WW. It also revolves around the concept created by Whitewolf of Vampires and Werewolves locked in a centuries old battle.

dude man you dont see the point that they are mad that Len wiseman made it before them. I think theyre claims are crap

I have good news for all you Kate Beckinsale fans. You enjoyed her as a killer vampire in Underworld (2003), now take your first look of her as a vampire killer at the GeekRoar Van Helsing gallery captured from the just released Van Helsing Trailer.

The lawsuit is crap. Personally, I think that the creators of Blade, Anne Rice, the writers of Near Dark, and just about every other piece of vampire fiction should sue White Wolf.

White Wolf should acknowledge that they did nothing original, and just get over it. With centuries and centuries of vampire lore, and tons of horror fiction out there, I'm pretty sure that some other copyright holder could make claim to every concept they claim as their own...

Was Underworld derivitive: Yes

but then every piece of vampire fiction all the way back to Bram Stokers Dracula has been derived from popular vampire mythos...

and for the "similarities" between the short story and Underworld's love story... laughable. There are tons and tons of "love stories" that utilize the exact same type of plot devices.

The fact that they want to claim infringement on the term Abomination being used for a vampire wereworlf half breed, and that werewolves are allergic to silver... wow!

the reason White Wolf made references to werewolves being allergic to silver and other obvious horror-movie facts is not to make their case, but rather to bolster it...they are desperate after all...but they do have a reason to be. How would you feel if you spent years of your life creating something just to see some major corporation steal 90% of it and make millions without giving you a single ounce of credit? Most of the people here are against White Wolf but it is obvious that Sony ripped off of White Wolf. Bram Stoker's story had a vampire, sure. Anne Rice's stories have vampires. But White Wolf created an intricate universe of vampires AND werewolves that was blatantly ripped off by Sony, assuming that the allegations that White Wolf made in the court papers were true (a lot of them were factually based, such as both universes have elders being shriveled up and being rejuvenated by blood, silver nitrate bullets, etc.). It's not that Sony ripped off one thing from White Wolf, but the fact that they ripped off so many. By the way, I'm no expert on Anne Rice, vampires, or werewolves, so don't flame me if I'm wrong on some parts.

I am a fan of White Wolf but I do find myself thinking that their claims are kind of out there. I can give examples to some of them.
Old Vampires shriveled up and needing blood: Dracula was in that condition for a time in Bram Stoker's book.
The Vampire liking a Werewolf..that is such an old plot device issue. One person of one group in war, finds themselves comprehending someone of the other side of the war. This is an old strategy plot line used in countless movies. I don't think I need to even list them. Romeo and Juliet has been said enough.
Werewolves allergic to silver is nothing new. Can they really think of suing for Werewolves being allergic to silver when the old Werewolf movies and many stories years older than WW have said this since the beginning? I just can't see it.
I did not see where Vampires had different abilities from one another. To me it seemed that the older ones had more power and that was about it. I certainly didn't see them doing extreme abilities, say pulling off Thaumaturgy or Obfuscate. It is an old rule in "Vampire Culture" that the elders had more strength and power. I never saw them saying anything about names of clans which gave them special abilities.
I do acknowledge there is a WW WoD feel to it in a way, due to the mention of clans coming together, and in particular, the word Abomination. This word is one I had not seen before I had played WW games.
However, the Vampires and Werewolves have fought it out in many series, including the old Dracula vs Wolfman movie and heck, its even on Scooby Doo. I'd like to see Scooby Doo producers haunt White Wolf.
In the end, there are so many similarities that will be present in any Vampire story. There are some great Vampire movies out there and stories, and a lot of the recipes can be quite familiar. I don't see a reason to sue for something that is obviously not from White Wolf but from the minds of many creative people and mythos. If anything, WW should be glad that the movie came out because it probably will encourage more rpg players to come out and buy their products. The movie did draw good size fan support.

Another point...I don't think they *stole* the name `abomination' for the vampire/werewolf crossbreed. It's all context...Viktor clearly hates werewolves (because of what happened in the past) I don't think he was using the word `abomination' to refer to the potential new species as a name in itself...just what he personally considered such a creature to be, a crime against nature in his opinion. As to the lawsuit..I find it ridiculous. I love WoD..I've played vampire and werewolf for years, but I admit it's silly. For one thing, the lycans in Underworld didn't have *nearly* the abilities that a Garou in WoD would have had..not to mention...the werewolves in Underworld are immortal, and the ones in whitewolf are not, they age a touch slower than humans, but if they're not killed in battle, then they grow old and die just like a human does. To the earlier person who thinks they `copied' the name Sonja for Viktor's daughter..that's outright stupid..is there a copyright now on first names in fiction? Sonja is an extremely common name in europe, no one said, "Sonja BLUE, daughter of Viktor" please...that's like saying they `stole' the name `Michael' when there have been `how' many characters named Michael in movies and books? and as to the Anitaverse..*which I also love*..yes..Anita Blake IS in love with a werewolf in that series..Richard..who was once just an innocent average Joe middle-school teacher who accidentally got infected with lycanthropy...hmmmm......similarities? But you don't see Laurell K Hamilton suing, Sheesh..and I quote Shakespeare, "There is nothing new under the sun." When you're dealing with genre fiction, whether it be books or movies..you're *going* to see similarities, there's really no help for it. If anything..WW stole ALOT of material from Anne Rice..Interview was conceived of pre- 70s..and her entire method for a vampire being created, that is, a human being drained of all their blood and then giving a bit of the vampire's to start the change..is identical to whitewolf's `method'..but Anne came first..so why isn't Anne suing WW? because it'd ridiculous to claim..."that's MY idea..you stole it..now give me all this attention and all your money" blah. Now....if the vampires were running a covert attempt to take control of the world...if Viktor had been addressed as an Inconnu or an antediluvian...if there were all called `clan Ventrue' or `clan Brujah', ect...if Lucian had been called a Silver Fang garou, and if the lycans had stepped sideways into the spirit world...then yeah..WW would have grounds to say that their ideas had been stolen..but since it didn't..it just makes me shake my head in disbelief...it's almost as bad as that woman who sued Mcdonald's because the coffee was hot..and how convicts in prison can sue for getting creamy peanut butter instead of crunchy and say that because of that they're being mistreated.

Ok I gotta admit I dont consider myself too knowledgeable about the white wolf universe except casual browsing of their game books at the store, and also having played vampire: masquerade which is supposed to be based off their stuff.

Is it just me or did the vampires in Underworld basically suck @$$ in terms of fighting ability? I mean cmon... ok they can jump off a building and not get hurt. And the vamp chick jumped up and stuck to the ceiling. But other than that you basically just see them running around the whole movie getting torn up by the Lycans or are constantly shooting off their guns. It was like a freaking gangster movie. They barely even showed their fangs most of the time. And... when did u even see them biting anyone??

Damn if they didnt say it was a vampire movie.. u prolly wouldnt even know it. Sure Viktor was kinda strong, but really he just liked knocking people around and swinging his sword. (His dracula-like cape was a little corny tho =P) I thought the WW world had vampires that had subspecies where different clans had different abilities? The vampires in Underworld basically didnt have much of anything... even Viktor was only physically strong... none of the vampires seemed to have any powers, they constantly depended on their guns... Damn even the werewolves liked shooting guns...

Yeah these "Stolen Ideas" that everyone is talking about has been thrown around, copied, recopied in so many themes and stories that it seems silly at this point. Go ask your grandma how to kill a werewolf and she'll prolly tell u to use silver. Hmmm better tell her to keep quiet or she might get sued. =P

Oddly enough, I think this movie is more similar to the matrix than any other movie.. damn the visuals, the costumes, the music, cheoreography all seemed similar... O well.. guess they might as well join the bandwagon and sue too. Speaking of which... Wonder if the new Van Helsing movie is going to get sued too.

Since when does a similarity define copying? If you have read something in the past, do the ideas not revolve around in your head, so that you may make the idea better in your own mind? I am sure if you look hard enough there is a past reference to Vampires and Werewolves in some sort of a war. Afterall were Werewolves not the day gaurdians of Vampires? Sure they may have used a similar name or two, but it might just be a coincidence. After all, you may remember names of characters in past movies you have seen, books you have read, and people that you have known. When is enough? When has it gone too far? WW seems to be just looking for something to test their claws on. Sony, a big corporation used a name from their movie. So? when has the name sonja become copyrighted material? Vampires and Werewolves having a war, how can that be copyrighted? If sony did decide to create a storyline to the exactness of the script, then it could be considered copyright infringement. The movie underworld could only help WW in the end. It may draw more people to the lure of the underworld. Draw more people to search for related material. And maybe even people to read books published about the subject? After all, just because a movie was published, the fans will not stop dealing with WW. I am willing to bet that it is more of a money issue then of rights being violated. WW saw an opportunity for a bit of moneymaking.

For an update on the Underworld Sequel see Film Roar: Danny McBride Confirms Underworld Sequel

Personally, I found nothing 'intricate' about the world. They told you nothing of it, other than the war between werewolves and vampires. I could understand if the place even had a name, which I assume is Earth, specifically Europe, from the the types of cars I saw.

And actually, no mythos combined the two races on one plane, yet again they never said they weren't co-existing species, either.

Did White Wolf create our world we live in? I'm not too sure about that...

Oh, and to show how they left alot of the mythos out...
1. It showed Kate's reflection.
2. Should could get in and cross water.
3. Werewolves kill VAMPIRES with their claws...if I'm not mistaken they regenerate if they're not 'staked'.
So, some of their stuff is kinda original.

I might have to try some WW games, though. Even if they make outrageous claims. The Masquerade looks fun. ^^

Just some extra comments:
1.Anyone notice the lighting in the movie? It seemed so much like sunlight flooding in...
2.I wanna see telepathy in the next one. ^^
3.Kate Beckinsdale's beauty is second only to my love's. ^_-