Film Roar

thanks. a most useful transcript indeed which seems to validate what I think....and help with my next viewing :)

omfg! it makes SO much more sense now!!! OMFG!! the architect is god. THANKS WHOEVER POSTED THIS ON HERE

The only thing I would add is that I believe the collection of monitors in the Architect's room portrays all of the potential responses/actions of this current incarnation of "The One" (Neo) to the discussion unfolding, rather than replays of the responses of the five previous Ones from the five previous encounters (which is what I think the transcriber is indicating here). I think all 5 previous incarnations of "The One" are distinct individuals, not just Neo looped 5 times.

While the transcibed description:

*Again, the responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: "Five versions? Three? I've been lied to. This is bullshit."*

...seems to counter my conclusion (Neo would say "Three?" only if he were in the 4th version of the Matrix program and the main discussion we're watching is in the 6th), the number of monitors containing unique responses to the discussion is a lot more than five. Which leads me to believe that maybe the transcriber is mistaken...

Or maybe it's a combination: the monitors replay the responses of all the previous Ones (which *are* all Neo looped) along with all of their potential responses as well.

...but what do I know, I could just be a brain trapped in a vat somewhere ;)

thanks, I seldom have such fruitful results from the net in so little time :)

What I didn't understand was why all of the previous versions of "The One" looked the same (ie Neo). Are they clones? Also why do they have to let them almost succeed and potentially risk their system? I think the plot's a bit flakey...

Darin and Cercei: You are both very welcome. The transcript helped me a great deal and seemed to be worth sharing :-)

The same thought occurred to me about the monitors. At first I thought they represented all the reactions Neo could have.. all the possible choices if you will. I then read the transcript and thought of the monitors as the previous Neos. It occurred to me that there were more monitors than Neos but it also occurred to me that a single reaction could be carried on more than one monitor and I would not notice. As for all the previous 'the one' versions looking the same that still works if Neo is not real but a program. I believe the monitors were displaying (as the transcript suggests) the previous Ones.. guess we will have to wait and find out.

How is it that Zion has been destroyed 5 times if Zion is outside the matrix? Could it be that everyone who thinks they are out are, in fact, STILL IN? Perhaps everything we have seen is still part of the illusion... how else do we explain Neo stopping the sentinels when "outside" the matrix? --Unless of course he just "happened" to raise his hand at the same time as the EM pulse mentioned in the last scene... At any rate, I enjoyed the movie and the transcript is helpful, but I am still very confused. I guess I'll have to wait until November too. But in the meantime, I'd love to see what other people think...

Hmmm... a picture starts to form, let's see if it makes some sense.

The machines needed to put a "choice" into the Matrix, which I'd guess involves accepting the world you see or not - or in terms of the first movie, taking the blue or the red pill. The Oracle discovered that 99.9 % of humanity will stay in the Matrix, either unconciously, or intentionally by taking the appropriate "pill" if they are given the choice. However, there is still 0.1 % that will not accept the Matrix, i.e. take the pill to get out & fight the machines, with the ultimate goal of destroying the Matrix - these are the "flaw", the anomaly, if I understand it correctly. And these people are of course the ones who end up in Zion!

The machines have to deal with them once a certain point is reached that enables the people of Zion to bring down the Matrix - probably given by the population of the city/the people "refusing" the Matrix. If they destroy the Matrix, they'd be unable to prevent everyone from dying according to the Architect, but because they don't know that they're still attached to the Matrix themselves, they would die in this system break down, too, causing the end of the human race and the machines. So The One was implemented by the Architect as some sort of final control (remember Neo's dialogue with the Senator, which brought up the subject, and the first few lines of the Neo-Arch. dialogue) - he was supposed to return to the central core, to the source, hence the whole "fateful" turn of events, like everyone being in the right place at the right time. Apparently his return is somehow vital to the destruction of the present Zion, and the creation of a new "refuge" for the next bunch of people who refuse the Matrix - that's what the Architect supposedly means by "salvation" of Zion. If he does not reinsert his code (whatever that means), the people of Zion will inadverterdly cause the end of humanity - the Architect seems to think that there's no other way, though my guess would be that a "lesser mind" will ultimately be able to provide one :).

Hence we'd have to conclude that Neo is in fact a program, designed to fulfill it's very own purpose from time to time, whenever the next destruction of Zion has to take place...

Wow, that's a treat :). What's left bugging me is they way the Architect addresses Neo - first everything indicates that The One is a program, but than he associates Neo with the human race by saying "your species...". If Neo was a program, that would explain his powers - compare that to the stuff the twins, Seraph, the Keymaker or the Oracle can do - and the whole bunch of other Neos on screen. If Neo is human, then according to the logic above The One could be a code extension which attached itself to Neo's Matrix avatar.

P.S. to my post:

@D-Skillz - if my interpretation of the dialogue is at least halfway correct, Zion and the outside world is indeed a part of the Matrix, too - for the machines it supposedly is a sort of isolated memory region, used to isolate potentially harmful code (i.e. human avatars).

I am, of course, as speculative as anyone else about what the hell is going on -- but there are a few assumptions and assertations that I just cannot yet buy into.

I am not convinced that Neo is a program. Although it seems a logical theory, and would answer many questions as to his powers and role (or purpose) in the Architect's scheme -- to consider Neo a program would also necessitate fundamental rejection of the Architect's entire dialogue. In other words, to assert that Neo is anything but human, means that the Architect is lying -- ergo, the baby is thrown out with the bath, and why believe anything else the architect says, thus rendering that entire scene useless.

Consider the following Architect phrases:

"you remain irrevocably human"

"I redesigned it [the matrix] based on your history to more accurately reflect the varying grotesqueries of your nature"

"Denial is the most predictable of all human responses"

"...was meant to create a profound attachment to the rest of your species"

"Humph. Hope, it is the quintessential human delusion"

Some may say that Neo's body is inhabited by a program, similar to the Bane/Agent Smith phenomenon. So in form, at least he is human; still, were that the case, the architect would have still been speaking to a being which is essentially a program, especially in the matrix where the human shell would be irrelevant.

I also reject the theory that everyone is still in the Matrix, Zion is just another part of the matrix etc. If that were the case, then why would the same 0.1 percent of Matrix inhabitants who initally chose to reject the matrix be so easily fooled into accepting the same matrix in just in a different context?

This doesn't answer any questions; but it does reject some theories, which I guess may be of some deductive value for others trying to answer the questions that I could not.

heh, it's ironic that i just theorized that about 5 minutes before i read your post.

another hypothesis, although not entirely foolproof is that the Real World in the movie is another matrix which is intended to greatly reduce the probably of people who don't conform to it. similar to the first matrix, the one Neo tries to destroy, it might require the humans to accept it by choice. if humans reject the first matrix, the environment and conditions of the second one create such a realistic reality that those who deviated from it might not question it's existence.

this may also explain Neo's sudden drop into a coma as a failsafe to keep him from realizing anything. as if the overseers of this matrix are thinking "shit! he might find out! pull the plug!" or something of the sort.

just food for thought.

to edit my above post, i was referring to what Therion said.

I tend to agree with the last posting. The movie does lead one to believe that Zion and the "outside world" are just a continuation of the machine reality of the matrix. However, I am confused as to whether the Oracle is actually the program which the Architect talks about, it is ambiguous from the dialogue and facial expression if he is or not. I propse that perhaps persephone may be the mother of the matrix, since its the only other "old" female entity in the matrix.

Moving on, I believe the monitors in the room represent the possibilities of responses available to neo (minus the one he consciously chooses). The monitors closest to him are those with the highest probability of being chosen. It also explains why all the Neos reply in unison and not with some delay.

What the dialogue from the Architect does not shed light on are the anomolies represented by such entities as the Oracle, Smith, The Keymaker, and Seraph, and frenchie (sorry I don't remember his name).

Questions:

What/Why does Smith transfer himself into the "outside world", and what does he mean by "..I want it all.."? Is Smith himself becoming a "Two", does he seek to go to the source himself, to regain purpose.. its not clear. Why does the outside world Smith cut himself in the beginning of the movie, does it represent some desire to feel human? Why does he ask the captain to volunteer for the reconnaissance mission to find the Nebudchanezzar?

What does frenchie really want when he means.. "power"? Does he want the true nature of the outside world, it just isn't clear from the information given (at least to me). I would assume that he knows something about the whole "being the one" scheme, as well as the levels of control, perhaps he really wishes to know indeed "..how deep the rabbit hole goes..".

And of course, what is Neo, really. At the end of the film he says "Something is different.. I can feel them..". This makes me think that something is different with the "outside world", unlike the way he felt during past experiences with the sentinels, maybe it has to do with Smith.

Lastly, it seems that if the first movie dealt primarily with the metaphysical questions of mind and epistemology, then this movie seems to delve into the questions of free-will and choice. Neither movie answers anything, but it makes a good exposition of the philosophy behind it. The last two pieces in http://www.thematrix.com under the philosophy section make very good analysis of these points.

I can only wonder what the last installment will deal with (or how it will try and tie up the loose ends).

Dude, wow, you totally don't get it. They are definitely not clones. Suppose the situation of the responses being all past responses of the "One" was correct (which it's not), then in that case, the reason they all look like Neo is because they all DID look like Neo. The reason that Neo looks like he does is because of a number in the matrix not fitting into the equation: i.e: NEO. (THE ONE). Look up the definition of a matrix and you'll see that it is a series or set of mathematical equations that is very elaborate and confusting and involved. In this case the matrix, is a series of equations which represents an entire universe. Every number in every equation in every set of equations is someone or something. Now, obviously Neo is not part of the matrix. If he were, he would not have the power to choose. Humans have the power to choose. A program does not. That program (matrix) is going to run until it no longer is able to compute the functions that it is set out to do. Have you ever heard of pi? The actual number for pi is 3.14 and many many decimals. Now it is commonly thought that those numbers go on forever in no particular order, but eventually, there will be a loop, or a series of numbers that will repeat itself over and over again. As an easier example take the fraction 1/3 as an example. .3333333333333333333333333 and so on and so forth. But that's not exact is it? Add up (3) 1/3 or .33 + .33 + .33 and you'll find out that in the fraction form you have ONE, but in the true decimal form you have .99 WHERE did the other .01 go? THAT'S "THE ONE". The missing number in the equation, the number that just doesn't fit into the current system that we have, because we are fallible as humans and are not able to construct a system where .33 + .33 + .33 = 1.00. Thus the matrix will always be rebuilt and always have an error, unless they come up with a different way to do things.

Enough of that. Now we can talk about the last couple posts. It was not that they all looked the same at all. The reason they all looked the same was because they were actually all NEO. The televisions represented all the possible reactions and choices that Neo could make. Whether this is realistic or not is debateable, but it does make for an interesting movie, doesn't it?

ONE LAST THING:
I gotta say this, too much fighting in this movie. Seemed like they were jamming the whole plot into the last 5 minutes.. am I wrong?

P.S.: My last post referred to many many posts ago by a guy named Nick...

P.S.S.: Agent Smith in a Computer Virus, by changing certain files (people) into himself he personifies the qualities of a virus.

As to what is being represented on the monitors, it can't be the previous Neos because the conversation moves between them. I think it was to represent an infinity of Neo because each screen had screens within screens, presumably to infinity.

Also, the idea that the "outside world" is part of the Matrix would suck harsh #$%& so I would rather go along with the idea from the philosophy section of the Matrix website where the Matrix Hypothesis is a more specific way of stating the Metaphysical hypothesis that we are already could be in a matrix. If that is the case, and the Matrix capital M is in a matrix, then Neo could concievably stumble upon a way to bend the rules of both. So Zion is in a matrix, but not one created by the Architect or controlled by him, but one he is subject to himself.
Just wanted to point out too that the Architect doesn't say Neo is a code, just that he carries a code.
Also, does anybody think Agent Smith is the Judeo-Christian Satan? Kicked from the Matrix (Like he was a fallen star in Revelations) who possesses others and builds an army.... who wants everything? Could the last movie be a showdown between different religious and philisophical ideals?

Okay, this is the deal. The occurence of an "anomaly" ie Neo is inevitable because, get this, the architect claims "despite my best efforts" he is unable to get rid of it. This "anomaly" is the only thing that can free the trapped people from the matrix. The oracle gives Morpheus the Prophecy. MOrpheus believes in the Prophecy (and Neo) so blindly that he risks his life in the first one. We find out at the end of Reloaded that the prophecy is bullshit. Switch to real life. Eventually the anomally would wake up and find out about the matrix, if he woke up and found the real world to be a desolate wasteland, he would plug himself back in and start to destroy the matrix the only way he knows how, awaking people to the truth. They would start to see the flaws and would start rejecting it, like the architect says happened to the earlier versions of the matrix. To keep the anomaly from doing this, the architect and machines (along with the Oracle,(sorry guys, she's a bad guy too)) tell Neo exactly what he needs to do. They present him with the illusion of choice. He believes he has to get to the mainframe to shut down the matrix. By doing this the oracle is keeping Neo from destroying the matrix the way it actually needs to be done. They believe the oracle has the answers, but in fact she is simply telling him what he "has" to do. By doing this, she, along with the other programs, are keeping the one in this continous cycle. Sure, the machines could attack and permanently destroy Zion, and keep it destroyed, but then when the anomaly comes through, they need outside people to continue fighting the war. The illusion of choice, the people in the matrix need it, the people in Zion need it. Lok was right. "Not everyone believes what you believe." He says this to Morpheus. Morpheus should have listened. Basically, Neo should not listen to what the oracle is saying, she is working for the Matrix, and Neo should follow his own path. If only he can get past Super-Smith. More on that later.

Some questions.

The architect says that Neo's failure to comply with the system, i.e. choose the door on the right and restart Zion, "will result in a cataclysmic system crash killing everyone connected to the matrix."

Why? Why would Neo's non-compliance cause a system crash? Did I miss something or was there no explanation behind that statement?

Could the architect have been lying? A form of self-preservation?

Any ideas?

Zion is not reality and the world that Neo considers to be real is but an extension of the Matrix to control the ones who reject the Matrix. When Neo 'felt' the sentinels and stopped them with his hand he appeared to be in what we were told was 'the real world'. Yet he still had the power (of a program within the matrix) to stop the sentinels. Matrix is control and Zion is control. Matrix and Zion ensure the entire human psyche is covered.

The search for 'the source' will probably lead Neo (and the rest of us) into one mind-blowing conclusion. I don't think the ending of 'Matrix Revolution' will please anyone. 'The source' is an infinite variable that only the writers' will choose. I would much rather choose my own ending to the Matrix...

To Nick Stroup,
Firstly to his theory about Neo being human, how can you prove that he does have the power to choose? It is hinted at all through the film that Neo has 'already made the choice, and he now has to understand why'. Whats to say that the choice has already been made, by Neo or something else? What if none of us truly has the power to choose anything anyway, and the whole point of existance is to understand why? Do you believe in fate? Even if you don't, you can't honestly prove it doesn't exist can you.

Secondly I dont like that way you think other people dont 'get it'. Isn't it quite obvious that there is no right answer? I think the possibility for so many different theories is exactly what the point of the movie is. I guess I can't really say for sure until the third part comes out, but I think the whole idea is to show people that no one really ever knows anything. I have been running the conversation with the Architect through my head over and over, and everytime I come to a conclusion there is something else which contradicts my desicion. It really began to bother me, and I have just figured out why. It is because there is no answer. It relates to our everyday life and the ultimate question everybody asks themselves. Why?

Everyone is entitled to their own theories and opinions, but just remember, theories and opinions can be changed and influenced by others so don't dismiss them so easily.

I am rather enjoying reading everyones ideas though. I haven't quite made up my mind what I believe, but when I do i'll be sure to post my theory.

Another point supporting the 'real world is within the matrix' idea:

If they've destroyed Zion so many times, why do they have to drill?

First we can ask the Question, what does an Architect do? An Architect organizes space. In this case the Architect uses mathematics to create a space where human minds can experience existence: the Matrix.

Mathematics even now serves as a metaphor to describe reality in science. Even the most sophisticated metaphors, however, have their limitations. Mathematics cannot perfectly represent the world. Some part of reality defies mathematical representation.

Science uses mathematics to describe pattern, then predict future patterns and finally to control the patterns. Yet reality does not actually fit perfectly into model of reality made by numbers.

The machines can describe, predict and control 99.9 % of reality. That counts a a vast majority, yet another part of reality exists beyond their ability to control, they can only influence it. They have used that influence successfully for every previous One.

Previously the machine successfully influenced the uncontrollable. The focused the uncontrollable into one human. Then through manipulating the universal sense of love that human felt, they influenced that human to make the choice the machine intended the human to make.

This last Neo differs from his predecessors. He experiences love in a new way.

The Architect sees the Prophesy as a lie. He sees it as part of the plan to contain the uncontrollable characteristic of humanity. Does the Oracle see it the same way? Neo going to the Architect may not have ended the war in the way Morpheus predicted. At the end of the film, Neo has passed beyond the Architect and now has knowledge that will allow him to make choices he could not have made before he met the Architect. The Oracle guided Neo, not to the last step, only towards the next step.

I suspect that the Oracle has move beyond a mathematical simulation of consciousness and has reached something closer to human consciousness.

Machines only experience yes or no, true or false, black or white. While the can develop incredible complexity they remain rooted in this duality. Human consciousness does not have this limitation. Humans can experience yes and no, true and false at the same time. We experience all the shades of gray. This makes us closer to reality itself.

I have some different thoughts than most of you...

First of all, I think that Zion is really outside of the matrix in the real world. Neo is a human.

Well, there is the matrix. It is running perfectly, without any problems - but now there is Neo. He is an anomaly - this means that something is different in his brain, his dna or something.

Now the matrix tries to stop this anomaly from destroying the whole matrix itself. So the matrix creates the prophecies and everything in order to make Neo do something. Actually they are playing a game with him - they predicted everything he would do - it's all cause and effect. Remember what they said somewhere in the first part:
"The Oracle isn't telling you the truth, she is telling you what you are supposed to hear." So the oracle told him something and the machines always knew what he would do. They knew predicted that Persephone would lead him to the key maker, they predicted that the keymaker would lead them to the architect. Everything was well planned - mathematically perfect.

The machines always thought that they were in control. Neo did everything exactly the way they predicted. But wait - there is something the machines did not predict - some anomaly they did not think of - Neo was able to control the sentinels outside the matrix.

That's the anomaly of the anomaly - something the machines did not know - the last chance for survival.

What do you think about my theory?

Hi all.
There are two factors in this movie that make me sure zion is still part of an illusion, designed as a fail safe from stopping any non believers from truly escaping the matrix.

1. Neo can stop the sentinels. how is this possible if he nolonger has only powers in the real world, unless it isnt the real world and he is still a program.
2. Agent smith can control the mind and body of someone outside the matrix when he takes over their body and leaves through the telephone. If smith is just a program how can he control that body if its purely flesh and blood? That guy he takes over is the one who sabotaged those ships they mentioned and let off the emp burst early. Thats also why he asks the captain to find Neo's ship. He did this because agent smith is controlling him, infected him if you will, and wants to destroy neo. The only way he could have done that is if the world zion exists in is still a program....

Zion is the next level of the matrix. Maybe there is no escaping, for how can you truly be sure youve left it?

Oh and one other thing I might addd which made me doubt Zion and its reality was indeed a program.
There have been 5 other "ones", if we believe the architect ofcourse. Thats means the matrix is what, 600/700 years old?
Theres a plaque in Morpheus's ship saying it was built in 2069. Theres no way the ship is 600 years old!! It must be atleast the dat 2700! UNLESS, Zion, the ships, the world, is just a program. What dya think guys?

Remember that the image seen of each individual in the matrix is a mental image of the individual itself. This means that although "the one"s showed on the monitors all look the same, they do not need to look the same in "the real world". It might be that Keanu Reeves apperance is the apperance of "the one" in each of the matrix versions.

If this was not the case, i don't understand how "the realworld" can not be a part of the matrix.

@Mike:

1.) I think nobody known why Neo could stop the sentinels - we will hear this in part 3 I think, but I would not count this as a sign that the world outside is not real - perhaps that's the anomaly - some change in his dna or something, or perhaps something was wrong with the sentinels, perhaps they were controlled by the matrix...

2.) Agent Smith is able to control the mind of someone outside because he took over this person's brain. It doesn't matter if that person is inside or outside, smith is in his brain.

Time) In the first part they said that they did not know what time it is exactly, but they think that the matrix is 300 years old. The architect basically said that the whole history repeated itself over and over again. So they might have constructed the ship in the year 2769 but thought it's 2069.

I think the matrix within a matrix holds the most water, I hope it is not, due to all the Matrix predecessors out there (Existenz, 13th Floor) so it would be a disappointment to me if this were the case.

Anyway

"Matrix in Matrix" VS "Matrix in Reality"

Questions to answer for a Real world:

1) Why do all "The Ones" look alike?

2) If all The Ones look alike, how can Neo look like he does now? As
Matrix persona is a projection of your real features, this would imply 5 previous clones of Neo in the "Real" world over the past 5 hundred years. Why?

3) How can Smith control a human outside The Matrix?

4) How can Neo control machines outside of The Matrix?

I'm clueless how this is all possible for the "Matrix in Reality" option.

OTOH

If a matrix exists within another, then that same inner matrix could be rebooted with the same playing characters every few (hundred? (time is relative)) years (giving a reason for "Outer Neo" looking like "Inner Neo" every time), when the anomaly arises and crashes the system. As this is a mathematical simulation, it would play out the same way every time the system was rebooted, explaining the resemblance of the "Ones"

So the outer Matrix is like a safe environment (a "Shell")in which to run the "Inner Matrix", a place created to hold the controllers of the inner Matrix (sentinels) and the anomaly outcasts, all focussed on creating Zion every time as they are still part of a mathematical equation.

Interactions between outer and inner matri; programmes controlling "humans" and humans "controlling" sentinels, can be explained by a breaking down of rules as the whole system crashes. The One, is the exponential error whose actions are causing system instability as the error propagates through the entire system (inner and outer)

So what is this all in aid of? An experiment on mankind and how it deals with the concept of free will? When will humans not choose love? What is beyond the matrix? How many layers are there? Does it matter?

So the Matrix may just be a sophisticated programme running, with two opposing forces, to see how events can happen differently through the "human" component? This idea is actually common in environmental/vr modelling, you have the factors, you plug 'em in and the let the model run, to see the results, altering slightly each time to see the different effects.

@Roland.
You say agent smith gets inside his brain. Er, how? How can a program infect living tissue? Its all very well saying something is inside his brain, but how can a program made up of ones and zeros be able to do that?
It just seems odd to me...
And dont we assume the ship was made before the matrix was ever made, before AI destroyed man kind and plugged them into the matrix?

RIght, my theory. All we believe from the first film is true. Neo is indeed human. Have we all forgot that when Neo visited the Oracle in the first film she told him he wasn't The One and that he was waiting for something? It took his death and subsequent, to coin a phrase 're-birth' untill he was truly The One. This does not fit in with the theories that the Architect was indeed telling the truth. How could Neo be in the sixth incarnation if he himself lived two incarnations in one life? My opinion is the Architect was lying. The Matrix is only in its second incarnation, that I believe is true. The Oracle did indeed design this incarnation giving humans the choice to believe or not believe. Giving Neo a choice is the oldest trick in the book. Making him believe that it has all happened before brings something into Neo that could destroy him, doubt. If he doesn't believe he is The One anymore, he will not fight. The Architect knew that the only way to defeat Neo was to give him the choice, to make him believe that it was all pre-scripted. Hell, why wouldn't he believe it after all the revelations from the first film? Neo did indeed fall for it, that is why he told Morpheus that Zion will fall, that the prophecy was not true. The prophecy spawned from The Oracle, an outcast. Why would she be an outcast if she was in on it? To make it more believable? Was it just a coincidence that Agent Smith appeared just as she left? This is the only part that confuses me. It makes me think that the plot is flawed, that maybe we are reading too much into it. Maybe the title of the next film gives the game away. Matrix Revelations? A revelation is 'The act of revealing, disclosing, or discovering to others what was before unknown to them.'

So what the Architect was saying couldn't have been true or there wouldn't be any revelations left to tell.

How can you make AI (artificial intelligens) in the first place? This is science fiction, everything is allowed.

Hi guys,

It my first post so bear with me.

I disagree with people who say that responses on the monitor are alternative answers (in this posts: just_thinkin & neotek). Follow my logic:

Response 1: *The responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: "Others? What others? How many? Answer me!"* Is in it curious that there are 4 responses corresponding to previous versions of Neo? (remember that this is version 6 and the first one did not have "Neo - One")

Response 2: *Again, the responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: "Five versions? Three? I've been lied too. This is bullshit."*
Again 4 responses, we can even place some chronologically (3 or 4, 2, 3 or 4, 1)

Response 3: *Once again, the responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: "You can't control me! F*ck you! I'm going to kill you! You can't make me do anything!* Again 4...

Response 4: *The responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: "Bullshit!"* - surprisingly the same response as 4 previous versions.

I think my logic makes sense. The interesting question is "What have the other versions chosen ?" I have a suspicion that they all might have chosen the door on the left adding yet another twist.

Gelo

Okey, this is just a minor thing. But what about the candy the Oracle gave Neo in the park. She clearly had one herself and as far as i could see it looked like a red pill. What does it all mean?? :)

Greetings
I'd just like to point out a few things.

It's pretty obvious that in the film universe people are able to instantly learn things by downloading knowledge. This means the human brain can have data input to it, and therefore have its contents updated, even changed. This would account for Smith's takeover of Bane: just like Trinity learned how to fly an helicopter, Bane "learned" how to be Smith by having the former agent's personality overwriting his own inside the brain.

As for Neo being a human or a program, I think he can easily be both. Remember the red pill, what was it? A program.
Now, Neo did what most mothers advise her kids against: he took candy from a stranger. Not a chocolate bar, not an apple. He took a cookie and a candy. Each of these treats has a very particular meaning, don't you thing? We all know what cookies are for in our real world, for instance.
My point is, the "program" part of Neo's being could simply have been attached to his in-Matrix self via the cookie and the candy.

I tend to think about the whole scenario as three levels -

1) The Matrix

2) The Matrix within the Matrix (what we thought up till now was the 'Real' world - Zion etc

3) The Real World - where everyone is plugged in - where the real machines are.

Neo could stop the Sentinals because what we thought was the real world is actually a Matrix - he can control it in the same he can control the other Matrix. The coma i belive is the result of a safeguard. Also, everytime that Zion is recreated - remember its in the matrix within the matrix - the the 23 individuals are just rebooted and not actually killed just beofre zion is destroyed. the rest of zions population are killed in the bottom level matrix. Also, I think Agent Smith will be a key part of the final film. remember in his conversation with neo he said more or less we are the same - i think he has a bigger role than we think.

The more I think about this movie the more I want to know what the Wachowski brothers try to deliver...

I have to see the movie again but here are my short thoughts to keep in mind. I thought I'd like to share them with you. I will add more as I think

Two things virus can do: crash the system or create an illusion
A choice is a minimum of 2; yes or no; 1 or 0; black or white, etc.
When thinking is ejected, decimal takes place: .0001-.9999; gray scale will replace black or white
Software makes software; 1 can be 1 simultaneously; 0 can be 0 simultaneously
Drugs are found by accidents through side affects
Stock market represent dollar amount but it is based on human psychology; can't predict
Morpheous is Moses
Oracle is human nature
Architect is God
Matrix is the universe of precise prediction until Neo and Trinity or Adam and Eve began to "think".
Machines are machines
Humans are machines that think
Smith is Satan or cancer cells
Matrix is the linear algebra with severe convergence; therefore it has to be reloaded with new guesses for best known coefficients at the moment.
The battle between the sexes: Oracle versus Architect
The battle between the races: Oracle versus Architect
3.14 is the simplest form but not the real length which never repeats
Zion is the constant or the right hand side of the equal sign; owned by Oracle (human emotion)
Matrix the constant owned by Architect (logic and design) or the second equation's right hand side of the equal sign.

Machines vs Matrix vs Zion

If the Matrix was designed to manage and farm the humans for the benefit of the "machines" then:

1. Who is the real antagonist, a "super machine"?
2. Are the sentient and exiled programs truly sentient, or are they just really "well written" programs that seem sentient, and the true AI exists somewhere in the "real" world as a machine.
3. If the program reboots itself, now apparently for the 6th time, does that mean that the exile programs (like the Keymaker) also reboot? And if so, do they know that they will come back? And do they then have any true freewill? Which then brings us to Agent Smith and his role in things, is he then the 6th Agent Smith, or is he a true anomaly?

My two sense:
Zion is not within a Matrix construct but actually in the "physical world" (whatever that is). Why would Neo have to be within a Matrix-like setting in order to "feel" and ultimately stop the Sentinels? Remember that reality, as we perceive it, is just a set of electrical signals interpreted by the brain. Why could Neo, having grown and changed through his Matrix experiences, not have stumbled upon a way to broadcast, or transfer without wires, electrical current from his brain to the "brain" of the Sentinels? Tesla was working on a way to broadcast energy, wasn't he?
And just because what the Architect says may prove to be untrue, doesn't mean he was lying per se. Here we delve into the realm of Gnosticism; specifically that version of Christianity which states that the creator of this world is unaware that he is not the ultimate reality; "Samael", the blind god, who does not know that there are other god(s) above him. FWIW.

Time for my two shillings I believe!! :)

Firstly the whole point in this thing, is that it makes very little sense until November, if you knew what was happening then you still would look forward to the next movie, but right now we all kinda NEED it.

Firstly I'm of the opinion Neo is human, like a great majority or those in the matrix, human but with no control. As the architect suggests, we already knew Neo, and the others Trinity etc were anomolies, those that couldn't accept the world for what it was. Like Morpheus said " a splinter in your mind" "waiting to wake up", and the look he gives the Fed-Ex delivery boy when he gets the phone. "Have a Nice Day", Neo is aware something is not quite 100% in this place.

The Oracle in the first movies has other 'potentials'. Others born into the Matrix, that somehow have the realisation, that rules can be bent, other minds to be freed, the young chap that gives Neo the advice that 'there is no spoon' has obviously got out, has he not? A spoon was given to Neo just before he left Zion from one of the 'orphans'.

Some of the people living in Zion, like dozer, tank from the first film, have no metal connections in their body, ones born in the real world. This may be just to enhance the Zion matrix, but I feel that Zion itself is still in the 'real world'.

To get to the Architect stuff now, he talks like there has been previous matrices, and that the position that the one has was to re-insert the code he was carrying, to free zion, by selecting people from the matrix, so many males and females, this is the start of a new Zion. Morpheus says in the first film "there was a man born inside, able to change things, it was he who freed the first of us'. The One previous to Neo, took the door to the source, re-inserted his code, and freed Morpheous etc. "the prophecy would be that this man would return" as inded Neo has, this time however, the love of Trinity has affected the human part of his brain, he is no longer just acting on impulse, he is thinking.

So the choice was, re-insert your code, start Zion all over again, or go back to the Matrix. Either way "she is going to die, and there is nothing you can do". Neo as far as I can see made change here, compared to the Ones before him. Instead of re-inserting the code like he was supposed to, neo thought, f**k it, you can't control me, and took the other door. And it seems that due to Neo's extreme will power he saved Trinity. " Don't think you can, know you can". So he has not fulfilled his purpose in returning the code, and yet he managed to save Trinity. So the Architect is now wrong on one account.

So we still have 24 hours of Zion left, the ships sent to take on the machines have been wiped out. Everyone involved is back out of the Matrix, however it now seems there has been no point to it all. If the one didnt reinsert his code there would be a "major system crash" killing everyone in the world. If the Matrix crashed, life support for the human batteries may end, without their brains the bodies would die, the machines would still be digging into Zion.. so there is a major problem here for everyone.

In the engineering floor of Zion there was further discussion with Neo on " we need machines, the machines need us". I believe that the interaction at the end of the first movie with Smith and Neo, has more to come in the next film. Smith orignally a program has became a consciousness, he always wanted to get free, and how he is a free conscience in the matrix, but with no outside body with which to leave the matrix, by copying himself he is hoping to find a real body, one that can be freed. He knows for sure that Neo is the body he wants, but it seems at the end that Bane is the external body he can implant himself in.

How can Neo control the machines outside of the matrix. How can Smith control humans outside of the matrix. Human controlling Machine. Program controlling Human. It seems to me that whilst in the matrix, interaction between Smith and Neo have caused some 'code' to be copied over, Smith is becoming more powerful, like Neo, and Neo has obtained communication with the machines. Neo always felt when agents were coming, he felt when bane/smith appeared back inthe real world, and now he can feel the machines presence....

In highlander style, "there can be only one". Neo & Smith must fight it out now, we assume neo will come through, and this will allow him to free the rest of the minds, if Smith wins, well who knows, but remember, Smith is no longer an agent, he is 'free'.

And now, you'll be glad to know, I'm leaving :) to go see it again because it makes more/less sense everytime lol

Mike,

I'm starting to think maybe Zion is part of a secondary Matrix too.

However, on your second point, agent Smith could theoretically infect a human outside the matrix, as everyone who was once part of the Matrix has the ability to interface with and be controlled by machines. Those little holes at the base of the skull presumably contain devices which help translate computer programs into a format that can simultaneously control human consciousness and disable the bodies motor functions. By extension it would be possible to override the consciousness and control motor functions thus the fella with the goatee is "possessed" by Agent Smith.

However, what really makes me think Neo is still in the matrix when "outside" is that both he and Trinity have been resurrected - not just in the Matrix but in Zion's reality too.
Fair enough, it is possible to come back from the dead when in the Matrix, as it's all in the mind. When you can restart your own heart in reality, I start thinking something isn't quite right with that reality. Funny how none of the characters seemed to question that little anomaly!

Re: Neo and Trinity coming back to life...

Remember that we only use 10% of our brains; or rather, we can only measure or know about 10% of what our brains do. The other 90%; what is it for, what does it do?

In that part of the world where Voodoo is practiced, people who know that they have been cursed to die, die. Is it because of an external, magical force that actually enters the cursed one's spirit, or is it because the belief is so strong that the brain just stops, just gives up and says, I'm dead, so it dies?

Who is to say that the brain, having once decided we are dead, cannot have it's mind changed and "decide" to be alive again? Obviously, there is a point of no return, where once sufficient electrical current has faded or leaked out, that the brain cannot "re-jumpstart" itself... but...

A lot of debate here so I'll give my perspectives and then try to back them up.

Zion is real. Let's temporarily forget Neo stopped the Sentinels for a second. The Matrix needs Zion to let real people live for real so they don't effect the balance of the Matrix. But, as a previous post says, when they get too powerful, they must be destroyed. Neo is allowed to keep so many real people to help unplug the people in the Matrix who reject it. The Machines need the people (besides for energy) to keep the Matrix up and running smoothly. Neo, the statistical anomoly is the only one to see the truth and must make the ultimate choice at the end to choose the door to save the Matrix and Zion to keep the program running. Make sense?

The Oracle is a good gal. Remember, the Architect is trying to kill the Oracle. Why if she is just there to propogate the One to choose the door to enter the mainframe? The previous 5 Neo's chose the mainframe to keep all the people plugged in alive and restart Zion. Maybe to get it right the next time and choose the other door. That's what the Oracle is trying to do. Get Neo to choose the door back to the Matrix and shut it down. Whether she cares if all the people die in the Matrix is another matter entirely.

I am confused as to why Mr. Smith wants into the real world. Some speculate it is not the real world and therefore is why Mr. Smith can exist in Zion. I don't believe this. Humans can download info into their brains and into the Matrix. Hence all the kungfu Neo learns. So, why can't it go the other way? Mr. Smith finally figures out how to get into the real world by downloading himself into a real human in Zion and now can attempt to control it. Maybe he believes that is the only chance to "live" since the Matrix will be restarted soon and he will be deleted.

Finally, how did Neo stop the Sentinels in Zion? Here's the leap of faith. Neo has somehow left a part of himself back in the Matrix and therefore a part of the computer program. He is effecting the real world by being a virus in the Matrix. Remember, Neo has never reentered the Matrix so therefore the Architect doesn't know what is going to happen anymore. Changing things in the Matrix will affect what happens in the real world because the computers in the real world are directly connected to the Matrix. They're all one giant computer program. How did Neo stay in the Matrix? Giant leap here. During the fight scene in the "castle" he bled. His blood of course is just computer code but now he has a connection between the Matrix and the real world. Beating the Matrix from within will beat the computers in the real world. It is not logical to the Architect that Neo can save Trinity, shut down the matrix before the Sentinels kill all of Zion, and save all the people plugged into the Matrix. Therefore, the Architect always assumes Neo will choose the Mainframe. But, he can't take that chance and therefore tries to kill the Oracle, tries to kill Neo, tries to kill everything. If he can defeat Neo in the Matrix, the anomoly will be stopped and the Matrix saved anyway. Whew, a lot to think about!

We can only guess who the Architect is. He may not be God, for all we know. He may be The Counselor who made The Matrix and can transform his looks while playing with the other characters in there. But I'm not giving out my guesses.

One thing definite that I have managed to cull from the latin mambo jumbo is that the Oracle uses intuition while the Architect uses equation. It would be good to read up on the following subjects: Zen, Fuzzy Logic, and Chaos to fullly appreaciate it.

Basically Zen says to the effect :"Strawberry fields forever. Nothing is real." Fuzzy Logic says inexactness can solve what exactness can't. And Chaos says that everything seems random and disorderly according to some order.

Keep this three in mind and you will be able to predict the outcome of the movie as I have.

No thanks to the scriptwriters who resorted to convolutedly profuse legalese to mask what is but a regular denoument where the villain explains his motives before he is destroyed.

email me for you questions: tetjie@yahoo.com

There are several questions I have, concerning "Reloaded", that are not put yet, leave out answered:

The Merovingian in my view seems to be "The-One-Code" that/who reinserted itself/himself into the Matrix to use its/his skill for maximising its/his pleasure. Any suggestions concerning this idea?

The Architect who build the Matrix in the beginning: Was he a human engineer who incorporated himself into his work to live on even after his physical death or is he a machine/programme that constructed another machine called the matrix?

In the world according to Morpheus it is not possible to have Zion as part of the Matrix, because this would mean to have a perpetum mobile: Machines can not be driven by the imagination of an energy-supply, they need the real thing. The only way to save Morpheus picture and have Zion inside the Matrix is to think of another Energy-Supply. Then the "fields where human beings are grown and the dead recycled to feed the living" are only another lie inside the 1%-Matrix that is the necessary white spot in the "black" 99%-Matrix. I see the following architects words as a hint into that direction and the only way to save the crude logic of the first film (even without the perpetum-mobile-thing human body heat can not drive machines, because it is nothing but recycled solar energy):

Neo - You need human beings to survive.
The Architect - There are levels of survival we are prepared to accept.

This could be easily read as: We do no need human beings to survive. My guess is, that the machines have found a way to harvest solar energy from outside the darkend atmosphere (see SR Part 1 & 2).

OK. This for now. Stuff for brains. More later if you are interested.

I Think Neo himself is the source. He is some like " the BIOS" of the Matrix. Therefore he must be part of any Matrix before and in the future.

I agree with the notion that the architect was lying. There are areas of arguable divergence in his story about this being the sixth version, and why the Matrix would need Neo to choose the 23 individuals, but his largest blunder by far was his statement -
"An emotion that is already blinding you from the simple, and obvious truth: she is going to die, and there is nothing that you can do to stop it."
Trinity was going to die, of that he was correct, but this is a two dimensional patch: 1) Trinity could die in the Matrix, or 2) Trinity was going to die at the hands of the sentinels when they attacked Zion. Neo proved he could prevent both.
The Architect was either lying, or already was himself subject to the fact that the "anomaly's systemic, creating fluctuations in even the most simplistic equations".
Now, if I could only decide if Neo can trust the Oracle?

But the Architect was not lying. Trinity DID die, only Neo brought her back. For a few seconds she was flatlined.

Whatever did happen to Tank?

The answer for 'What happened to Tank' can be found in the previous post:

http://www.geekroar.com/film/archives/000249.php

Hm. I've been reading all the posts ... and here's something that just struck me. I'm going to leave the zion/who is neo/how many matricies are there/etc alone for now.
Neo says, "you need human beings to survive." And the Architect replies, "There are levels of survival we are prepared to accept."
What this says to me is, the Architect is admitting, in a roundabout way, that he won't destroy humanity. As much as he'd like to just wipe it all out, while of course somehow letting Neo know that he was to blame for the extinction of the human race ... he won't do it.
Also, I personally think that what happened when Neo chose the door he chose, he triggered the next version of the matrix ... they're running dual-booted, if you will - two OSs (for lack of a better comparison) at the same time, hence why he can feel the sentinels. They are the beginning of version 7 (if the Architect is to be believed) of the matrix, which starts by wiping out the old version. But that's just my humble opinion on it.
(Just on a side note ... the Merovingian amused the hell outta me. He and Agent Smith have to be two of my favorite characters in this movie.)

Hi, this is my first post
one Question:

when Neo chose to go towards the left door to save Trinity, the Architect says "Humph. Hope, it is the quintessential human delusion, simultaneously the source of your greatest strength, and your greatest weakness"....meaning that he knows the Neo would choose to save Trinity even if "she is going to die" instead of going towards the source. Well, there seems to be a contradiction there, because the "the function of the one is to return to the source," which is what the door on the right leads to, but he chose the door on the left. The Architect's quote on hope implies that all of "The One's" always hold out hope and go towards the left door, but how can that be true if the function of the one is to return to the source through the right door? This results in the impression that all "The Ones" go through the left door and the impression that "The Ones" go through the right door each time. I'm completely confused.

i do believe that the Oracle is trying to help Neo, at the end of her conversation she says " for whats its worth u have made a beliver out of me" maybe implying that he will bring about the fall of the matrix after all. she knew he would save trinity. as for how he can controll machines if smith can control humans why not neo controll sentinels. and lets not forget were all asuming that there is no flaw in the plot. i think untill revolutions comes out and thats REVOLUTIONS NOT REVELATIONS as someone posted we are all taking stabs in the dark so to speak. all good theories, but theories none the less. it might turn out this is all just a dream. talk about a cop out eh ;-)

1) stormhawk has raised very interesting points. I love the idea of cookies/candy as kind of reprogramming Neo's path...

2) How did Morpheus get back to his ship? He was still inside the building, when Neo went of to his chat with the architect?

3) Why exactly has Neo fallen into a coma after fighting the sentinels in the "outer matrix"

4) Through the "enlightenment" of Mr. Smith in the first Film Neo became part of Smith / Smith became part of Neo. Why is there the "high-noon-shooting" between them in "Revolutions" (for all those who stayed to watch the minute or so of "Revolutions" after seeing all the names of the film-staff?

5) A transcript of the Oracle-Scene ould be helpful too

6) My wife thinks, that Neo nd Trinity will die after Trinty gave birth to their child in the third film. I like this idea.

Morpheus leaves the matrix with the help of the key maker who tells him what door to use to get out before he dies

what (i assume) most of you forget is, that the matrix is indeed merely a power plant, to replace the lost energy that was used to be gained from the sun..however, the real machine civilisation is the very core of the future world, not the matrix power plant...i wonder how this is going to be concluded :-)

regards, bu

The thing is if Zion is really a Matrix too you have to wonder how do you know your in the "real" world. After a while you just have to realize it doesn't matter. Eventually you just end up accepting something as truth and you live your life that way. At some point in your life you end up taking the Blue Pill. But for the most part I feel Zion is another Matrix. Putting the Architect's scene asside I believe Agent smith leaving the first Matrix and entering the "real world" illustrates this. Otherwise Agent Smith learned how to rewire the organic human mind. Then at the end when Neo was able to destroy the machines, I believe that supports the belief that the real world another extension of the first matrix. The reason for its existence is to control those people who have hope. Who want to take the red pill because they want to search for something as illogical as truth. The machines don't understand hope. So the possibility of "The One" exists to give the small percentage of people who look for it something to do. Where as some people get meaning from just living their humdrum lives others need a journey they need to keep their minds busy. So the machines provide those people with that. But that means people would be getting closer and closer to "reality." So more Matrixes would need to be developed, but to stop humans it would have to be infinite. So there is hope of reaching the real world. But who knows what it looks like still. It could be anything.

Hi guys

Something else that has not been discussed before and makes me think that we are dealing with a second level of the Matrix in Zion is the spoon.
Neo gets a spoon wich is obviously bend many times. Let's assume it has been bend as we saw them do it in the Matrix. Might be an indication that we are dealing with another level within The Matrix.

kr.

Good point. The spoon in the first movie was bent by Neo within the Matrix in the apartment of the Oracle. In the second movie Neo receives the spoon in Zion which we consider to be the real world. If this is the same spoon then there was a physical transfer between the Matrix and 'the real world'. This only implies that 'the real world' is an extension of the Matrix. The fact that Smith can transfer his program into the body of someone in Zion sets this in stone.

Perhaps this entire world within a computer is nothing but the byproduct of human designed artificial intelligence consciousness ... a simulation if you will... the act of humans playing God with computers to create an enormous matrix of AI neural networks that think they are human. Perhaps mankind, using AI, has replicated the human mind within a computer. This is all speculation of course but there is little doubt in my mind that 'the source' is humans themselves... not machines.

OK, I would hate to believe that Zion is in the Matrix, at least the Matrix created by the Architect, I have no doubt that he controls Zion and that it is part of his plan, but I definatly think that Zion is in the real world as we think of it (if there is such a thing). Why could Neo stop the Sentinels? Aside from the possibility that they came into contact with the ships disrupters which were still functional it could have been someone in the Matrix causing the Sentinels to drop making Neo think that he was still in the Matrix. If he thinks Zion is in the Matrix he is more likely to cooperate and the machines could easily call off their dogs. Also keep in mind that while Neo is human, he does carry a code which would most likely be a program so he could possibly control the sentinels but I have never seen him control another person outside the matrix.

As for agent Smith controlling a mans brain outside the Matrix, that seems easy enough, there is a direct connection going into the back of Bane's real head to the Matrix, he just got in there. For those that say that a living brain of organic tissue cannot be controlled by a machine, this is simply not true, they have been able to make blind people sense green lights without their eyes by manipulating the brain, they can make people hear music by feeding it directly into the brain etc... So I think that as Neo carries a code, so now does Bane.

As for good guys and bad guys and as to whether the Oracle is good or bad, I think the Matrix will ultimately transcend good and evil, the battle is now between Smith and Neo and the Architect is beyond it all.

Once again, the Neo's in the background cannot be the Previous Ones, not only because there are too many but because the dialogue moves between them. They are all the current Neo and I also think they are all connected to his "real" brain, who is to say that the real Neo can't manifest itself many times at once in the Matrix, say like, oh I don't know.... Agent Smith?

I don't tink Zion is part of an other matrix... otherwise wich would be the purpose to go back in the other one?

Check the Revolutions teaser (http://www.leesmovieinfo.net/special/RevolutionsTeaser.php ) and see that they're back in the first matrix.

Ps: Merovingian really was one of the Ones...

The critics say that they ruined the storyline in Matrix Revolution but it is very apparent that the subtle hints sewn through the tapestry of this movie is as brilliant (if not more) as the original movie. There is so much more to speculate and wonder at the ending of this movie than the first movie provided. We pretty much had a big picture at the end of the first movie and now we have a lot to wonder on what really is going on. The critics have no sense of the brilliance of this sci-fi philosophy.

Here is the answer to all of your questions:
You are all right, and you are all wrong
The plot/story is designed to be though provoking to such a degree that you will absolutely
be compelled to watch the finale in November to find out whether your theorem are correct or not.

In doing so you will pay your money at the box office to find the answers you seek, making Warner Brothers, the Wachowski's and film stars happy (for success and financial reasons).

This is not a bad thing, it is after all escapism we seek in such a world of war, conflict and death. Just remember, like the Architect - only the script writer(s) know what the real meaning of 'The Matrix' is. If they can plant the seeds for forums to cultivate and debate until the next instalment then they will definitely be onto another winner - even if you don't like the conclusion.

Nonetheless, you are all very philosophical people with thought provoking ideas - that's a god thing!! Debate away, the 'Revolution' will set you all free.

The Caretaker.

just some thoughts on the eventual outcome:
it seems totally illogical to me that the machines are really using the humans for power, they could use other animals that are easier to keep happy, or perhaps just burn the food they feed us which would produce more power anyway. instead i think that both the original matrix and zion are virtual realities created by humans to control other humans. has anyone read 1984? this could be a much more advanced version of the thought police. the ruling government has created a perfect "opium for the masses" in the form of a whole reality-system. they can then choose to revel inside it (as the marovingian does perhaps) or to rule over it from outside. or maybe the original people in the matrix were not imprisoned, but chose to be there because the real world had become so unbearable (as the eco-warriors say it soon will be). remember the theme of choice throughout the whole 2nd moive. whether or not neo will break out of this or not i don't know, but we must assume that he does something spectacular or there would be no point in the next movie.

The last 15 min of this movie was really weird, when he stopped the machines in the "real world" I thought that he somehow managed to connec to the matrix without machines which would make him really powerfull, but it can also means that there is a matrix inside a matrix and that he woke up in the real world, altough my brother was playing the game "Enter The Matrix" And I believe that Jada Pinkett (niobe) died at the end Reloaded but she is alive and well in the game, but the point is in the game there is a trailer of revolutions which she is alive and the game says that neo is stuck inside the matrix and that they have to "save" him , I think its all bullshit from the game.

Architect - "While this answer functioned, it was obviously fundamentally flawed, thus creating the otherwise contradictory systemic anomaly, that if left unchecked might threaten the system itself."

Neo- "This is about Zion."

---left unchecked--- ... The dialog of the architect basically proves that Zion is another form of control to prevent threat to the system. Believing that Zion is 'the real world' would be the same as believing 'the Matrix' is the real world. It's all a system of control...

Perhaps the responses on the monitor is not "the other Ones" or "all the possible responses" rather what the architect predicts Neo will say...

The Architect - "Denial is the most predictable of all human responses."

Why does it have to be a second level of the matrix. Why not a second level of humanity. All through time there have been stories of higher level though such as ESP or the ability to levitate. Why cant this not be the next step in human development? Some folks believe that cancer is a part of evolution. Humans have not adapted.

As for Agebt Smith. What makes me wonder is the trailer to revolutions. The oracle states that Neo must defeat him tonight or it is all over. Why Smith?

Hi!
Once i have read the book ( i think that was Dick's stories) about people that advnaced sa far in theier evolution that thay could use psi-skills. the next step of evolution were people completly resistan to antoher's inluences.

conclusion - neo could learn (evolve) how to control machines, or has donloaded part of code which let him to stop the sentiels. why he felt asleep.. as in the first part when he entered matrix he also was not feeling good :)

remember the scene when neo is fighting with chineese guy? he says smotehing like this:
"humen can only be recognized by fight.."

i think that neo will fight smith and will recognize in him a machine. i think i try to control him but as it was said in the animatrix he would try to convince him to join them.

together they will destory the matrix!!! yeaaha;]

I, much like the rest of you, have my own hypothesis on what has happened and how that will usher in what is to come, but until I get around to posting it, all I'll say is that they better not screw with us and have "Mr. Andersen" wake up in his apartment at the end of Revolutions.

I have come to the conlusion that there is no right answer here. In theory it seems as all hope is lost. Can it be? Humanity doomed to relive each day in a loop based on a predetermined path? If that is the case what is the point of a "choice" I like to think that humanity has a choice and a chance. Human will is something that the machines will never understand. Beliefs or faith are something the machines will never be a part of. What is it to say that the Architech is telling the truth? How can we not be sure that it is decieving or trying to decieve to lead neo astray. Maybe the architech is telling the truth but maybe it is understimating Neo Version 6.0. Maybe the humanity and the will of Neo is enough to save Zion. Or Maybe Zion falls and all is lost and humanity is doomed.

Did anyone else notice that Neo didn't eat the candy that the Oracle gave him? I seem to remember him taking it, and then lowering his hand to his side as the camera panned away to the Oracle eating her's. I don't think it's significant in any way, but while watching the scene, I was STRONGLY reminded of the Red pill from the first movie. Heck, the candy the oracle ate was even Red.

It just seemed interesting, and I had a really strong sense of forboding when she handed it to him. I was a little bit disapointed when nothing happened.

any guesses on the role of the orphan?

how did he find them (neo, trinity...) as it was said in the movie?

also he might have safed neo's life when he was calling after him just b4 bane could get close enough.

finally, does any1 else got the same fealing, that trinity and morpheus did a lot better against agents compared to the first movie?

A few thoughts:

- "Reloaded" has two meanings. One is, of course, "to reload a gun". But then there is also "to reload a program". There was a lot of talk about "rebooting the matrix" - part of booting is "loading". After the matrix is rebooted, we have a "Matrix Reloaded".

- What do the monitors show? The architect says "That was quicker than the others.". If Neo was quicker than the others, how could the others have heard the same sentence? If they haven't heard it, they could not have responded to it. Therefore, the monitors do _not_ show the others.

- So what do the monitors really show? When Neo says "Bullshit", all other monitors say the same thing. This is the only time that all responses are the same. The architect says "Denial is the most predictable of all human responses". So what the monitors show is not "what's happening inside Neo's head", but the different answers the Architect expects to hear.

- The architect "I redesigned it based on your history". Even if the outside world (Zion etc) is a simulation as well, somewhere there still was the real world - maybe in the layer outside Zion.

- When the architect said ""that the answer eluded me because it required a lesser mind" he looked up, like we normally refer to god. Take a good look at your next viewing. It looks like a blasphemy.

***
The Architect - Quite right. Interesting. That was quicker than the others.

*The responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: "Others? What others? How many? Answer me!"*
***

If the monitors show the answers of the other Ones, then the architect must have said the below sentence also to all the others. But why would he do this? ;)

*brain hurts*

good night from germany

Oh i see, someone has also thought about this.

Some addtional thoughts:

- The speech of the chief of Zion concluded with "I give you Morpheus". Sounds like "I give you morphine". And what do you need morphine for? To ease pain. And indeed, Morpheus speech makes the people of Zion ease their pain :-)

- Many viewers thought that one of the biggest flaws in the first movie was "using people to get energy makes no sense - the food that they gave to the humans could be processed by the machines more efficiently". Well, you might be aware that any machines is inefficient by design and loses some energy during its purpose of transforming energy from one form to another - but this hasn't stopped anybody from building machines, right? So we just have humans as machines, and they too have inefficiencies.

- Could it be, that the way how machines and humans live together in the Matrix-relationship is not one of oppressor and oppressed, but more one of symbiosis? In the same way that the inhibitants of Zion could not stop their water preparing machines, the machines that control the Matrix could not stop the simulated world and it inhibitants.

Hiya people, First time here!

I just wanna say that I think the Architect was telling the truth simply because the
1) Oracle always seems to know what is happening even in the real world (eg. "I know your having trouble sleeping" )
2) Neo has dreams in which he sees Trinity get shot and falling(a future event)
3) In the first movie, Morpheous says neo is meant to be a reincarnation of a man born before who could handle the matrix( a previous ONE?)
4) If you look in the bottom left of the screens the architect shows Neo, you can see Trinity fighting an agent and getting slapped by an agent as well as thrown against a wall, but that scene is shown again properly to us, but only AFTER neo leaves the architect so I'm thinking maybe some future events were also being shown to neo. (all of these indicate Predestined/Preprogrammed events that would indicate a loop/previous matrix)

One other thing, I recently read a book called the Deus Machine, in which a man known as the 'Architect' (coincidence ?) designs a computer that becomes sentient(mother) but there is a secret that only he knows and that is that within this very complex machine there exists another sentient being. (an intelligence within an intelligence)

Similarly, I think that maybe the 'real world' is not so real, or at least it is a matrix within a matrix and that maybe they got some ideas from this book!!!!

I had a thought with regards to the Agent Smith thing. As I understand it, he's now free from the confines of his programming as an agent, so why is he still trying to destroy Neo? Revenge is very much a human trait. Has his experience with Neo in the first movie corrupted Smith's program in some way to make him behave like this? Has he perhaps been infected with humanity?

In the end, I think this is all going to turn out rather sadly to be another, admittedly more entertaining adaption of 'Simulacron 3', the book which inspired 'The Thirteenth Floor'. Not just because of the virtual world within a virtual world idea, but also because the Agent Smith/Bane thing mirrors the Jason/Jerry Ashton incident.

One other thing, about agent smith,in part 1 he had Morpheous to himself and was interrogating him about the codes to Zion's mainFrame. Even then,he was saying things like "I must be free", (because of the smell and all that) so maybe hes trying to migrate from one host computer to another ( i.e. acting like a virus, replicating, merging/mutating other programs (people and agents).
i.e. I think neo at the end of the first movie merged with him (before tearing him apart) and some of neo's code(thats what he is in the matrix) must have mixed with his code and just like neo learnt to "free his mind" from the restrictions of the matrix so agent smith has learnt to break free from his bonds(rules of the matrix).

i thought i was the only one w/ questions when i left the movies.

I do remember Neo putting the candy in his mouth, because when he did i thought it was a trap and the oracle tricked him.

Whoever brought up the point about "taking candy from strangers" great awareness.

thank you esche on your comment about machines using humans/bio's for energy, was wondering when someone would mention it...if we think about this for a second, maybe we need to evaluate that as a basis for our follow on rationales.

I don't know that we can accurately predict the motives of all the players yet with certainty - which is what will make Revolutions very interesting indeed!

But remember this allusion if any:

- "There is no spoon."

Ussy was right on the money to bring up Smith's comment from the first film (I have to get out of here). The Matrix is not necessarily the only digital "world"; merely the one that the AI has chosen to keep humanity controlled. Who knows how many other "worlds" or realms of existance there are for the setient programs to exist in? Smith just wants out of the coal pits that the humans' realm represents to him (you load 16 Gig, and whattaya get, another older and deeper in debt). Just because Smith is no longer an Agent who is required to report to a higher authority doesn't mean he likes the coal pits any less. (I fear I have somehow become infected... it's repulsive) He's still trying to get out; even if that means leaping into an actual physical human mind. In this respect, he may actually be the strongest character in the films. Who among you would be willing to "break two bones in his wrist and then use the dull blade of his multi-tool pocket knife to saw through his flesh" (that mountain climber guy who got trapped by a boulder in Utah).

BTW, it's obvious, is it not, that among all the layers of grey we're presented with, there is one absolute darkness? He can speak any language he chooses, yet his choice is FRENCH! Le mal, c'est le Merovingian! FRENCH SILK, for goddess' sake! Never going to eat one of those creamy brown goodies again, are ye?

I posted this earlier, but no one commented, so I'm reposting. Any comments?:

when Neo chose to go towards the left door to save Trinity, the Architect says "Humph. Hope, it is the quintessential human delusion, simultaneously the source of your greatest strength, and your greatest weakness"....meaning that he knows the Neo would choose to save Trinity even if "she is going to die" instead of going towards the source. Well, there seems to be a contradiction there, because the "the function of the one is to return to the source," which is what the door on the right leads to, but he chose the door on the left. The Architect's quote on hope implies that all of "The One's" always hold out hope and go towards the left door, but how can that be true if the function of the one is to return to the source through the right door? This results in the impression that all "The Ones" go through the left door and the impression that "The Ones" go through the right door each time. I'm completely confused.

Has anyone else noticed the continuing room 101 references in the film. The fact that neo's room in the first episode was 101 is common knowledge - a reference to a room of torture that will make its victims believe anything they are forced to intake day in day out whether it is the truth or not (from the book 1984).

However i noticed the number cropping up several times in Reloaded too, and i couldn't understand why i kept seeing it? For example the floor of Merovingian's Restaurant was level 101, and it cropped up in other places (darned if i can't remember where now tho).

This made me think back to the novel 1984 - was there not a war in that book concocted by the powers that be to provide control over there human citizens. Is this maybe a pointer to the war between the humans and the machines being an illusion itself created by some other power to control the humans which would lend even ,ore credence to the matrix in a matrix theory.

Any comments or am I reading too much into the philosophy of this trilogy?

I believe, in the Architect neo convo, the architect mentions that there have been 5 previous 'Ones', making neo the 6th.He mentions that they have tried to destroy Zion for the 6th time. Which in my sence, makes me believe neo has to sacrifice himself to save zion in Revolutions.

The Architect was wrong because Trinity was saved. The Architect is not all knowing and can not truly determine which choice which ONE will make. This is why I believe that there is hope for ZION and all of humanity

how about this?

persephone wanted neo to kiss her like he is kissing trinity. what if this was just to test him how deep his feelings are to trinity and thus how he will make up his mind confronted with the choice by the architect later on? considering this, it means that persephone (and also the oracle) are just part of the routine to point neo in the right direction. from the architects standpoint. thus taking actually choice away from him...

I've now seen the movie twice - mostly to pick up what I missed from the conversation with the Architect.

I think that most of us are aware of the Buddhist and Christian parallels apparent in the first Matrix. Matrix Reloaded takes the Christian ideology to new heights however (at least in my limited understanding, I'd love to discuss with a theologian.

First, someone mentioned that they think that Agent Smith might represent Satan, and yet another suggested that Persephone might be the mother of the Matrix. However, I propose that the Oracle is not only the mother of the Matrix -but indeed represents Satan/Lucifer himself (or herself). Let's look at the clues:

The Oracle is does not determine the fate of any of the characters, she is only a guide, someone who sets the stage, reveals the script, then allows the actors to play out their roles. She is neither good nor evil. Like Satan, she does not cause mankind to commit evil acts, she merely provides him with "CHOICE" (the big 5 letter word in this movie, and the one that singularly causes the biggest mind trip). Eve didn't have to eat the apple in the Garden. The snake didn't make her (or did it?), just as Morpheus didn't make Neo take the red pill, or the Architect make Neo take the door into the
Source.

Second, the Architect also said that it took a lesser mind than his own to see the flaw in the Matrix programming. The problem with the Architect (and ultimately God - but I don't want to really open up that can of worms), was that the Architect made man in the Matrix in his own image - as did God. Perfect. But mankind is not perfect. Neither is our math. Hence the .1% anamoly problem. The Oracle was able to tell that. The Oracle "befriended" humans in the Matrix - and was cast out, as was Satan. Maybe I'm reading too much into this.

Interesting too that the Architect's speech and subsequent telling to Neo of all the Zion's that came before, rather smacked of the story of Noah, didn't it? Anyone checked a Bible to see how many people were on the Ark?

I thought it was also great how they tied in the whole Vampire/Ghosts/Werewolves and Aliens bit into the plot. But I think they could have broadened the concept a little more. Afterall, if the movie is meant to explore "Control" and "Choice", myths of monsters have been used for thousands of years as forms of social control. We teach our kids not to get out of bed or the boogeyman will get them. In Eastern Europe it was legends of the vampire. In North American Aboriginal culture it was stories of Windigo that kept people out of the woods. Most of these stories kept people in line (especially amongst some aboriginal groups. In Ojibwa/Chippewa traditional society, stories and legends were only to be told in the winter, when the spirits were asleep. Of course, this kept people from wasting time in the summer when everyone should be out gathering food). Now we have to worry about the Men in Black - don't buck the system, shop at The Gap.

I don't know quite yet what to make of the whole Zion just being another part of the Matrix plot -or of Neo's powers in the "outside" world. Maybe the Wachowski's are just trying to tell us that no matter how much we think we're not part of the system (attention all anti-World Bankers), that we still are (ex. The 0.1%Protesters clash in front of embassy against war, footage makes the news, news has commercials, people watch commercials, and the 0.1% just took choice out of the equation for the 99.9% glued to their televisions.) Cheers!

Ok, this has been a long topic & i'll b impressed if n e 1 reads this far but i thought sum pts might b in order.

1stly (i apologious, this has been mentiond so often)
Matrix within a matrix (i.e zion), the problem with this theory is that u then need another matrix with in the 2nd matrix to contain the ppl that dont accept the 2nd matrix. this leads to infinite worlds/matrices.

U can cum up with good arguments for the smith/bane situation. i.e. interface is already there, simply needs to rewrite sum electrical pathways, as must b done often 4 uploadin information (such as kung fu). but it doesnt mean he has.
And for the Neo/sentinal. possibly left sumthing of him self behind in the 'core' with the arcitect, or he brought sumthing bak with him
"the process has altered your consciousness, you remain irrevocably human" (this i like the sound of)
Also the spoon gives hope for spoon bendin in the zion world.

However i prefer to believe that zion is in the real world. It is a lot more logical to produce a process which naturally brings all the anomalies together to b dealt with than stickin them in a new program then another etc etc. It is simply more economical.

The worrying thing for me is the arcitects accuracy of his predictions of neo's reactions. this suggests that he knew exactly how the meetin would turn out. i suspect that if this is true he cud hav caused neo 2 do anything he wonted 2 and so engineerd him to re-enter the matrix. However he was suprised @ the speed of neo's response, and i believe the screens show his possible replies, so it means the the acitect is on CERTAIN of wot Neo will do, but only predicts the likelyhood of it)

2ndly. On the subject of good/badguys in the way of programs. all these programs came from sumwhere. it is concevable that the originate through a sort of 'code mutation' but it is unlikely that they wud fit the task o perfectly. therefore i believe that the were all produced to do wot they were meant for all along, whether they know it or not. they hav been designd. so for example the twins were always meant to fight morphious, whether or not they know it, and the oracle was meant to lead Neo to complete the circle. This however becomes a bit hazy on the points of the Oracle & of Agent Smith. Smith is meant to do wot he does otherwise he wudnt hav stopd neo b4 he went thro the door and so they wud hav all died when the bomb went off (since alarms were not deactivated in the core entrance building). But smith has a bit of human 'unpredictablility' in him now, and the oracle was designd to become able to grasp this concept. So i believe these 2 while both are predictable to a point hav a part to play in allowing an alternative future to the zion/matrix loop that the arcitect might not hav predicted.

to me the line "you hav made a believer out of me" from the oracle to neo. signifies that she does indeed know wot she is meant to do, has realised that neo is different from the past 'One's and might cause the made up propecy to come true.

(an addtional minor pt)If the machines have ruled on earth for 700 (probly more) years. wot hav they been doing all this time? surely they have explored beyond the solarsystem. or at least set up an inteligence in space, where there is easily accessed solar power.

I hav many more points but think i sud end it there for now.

Sorry about the rant

(o n cant remember who postd it but i think the idea of Neo n Mr smith fightin side by side sounds ace :0D )

2 quick pts

Was the arcitect wrong about Trinity or did he simply wont that reaction ? or am i gettin paranoid/readin 2 much into it?
and

It does seem to follow that if Neo's code is sumhow essential to the maintance of the matrix. his death cud prove a problem. but possibly only for the ppl, since apparently
"There are levels of survival we are prepared to accept"

Quick Thought:

If you wipe out your computer's hard-drive, and reinstall all it's programs, does your computer know what happened? Not really...except for the clock. Why does Zion look so old and primitive? If it really has been around for 100 years (as Morpheus proclaims), then why the ancient tattered clothing and submarine doors on all the apartments? Isn't it possible that the Sentinels did already come 5 previous times to destroy the humans of Zion, left the city "relatively" intact, only to be rebuilt and repopulated by reprogrammed humans who think that they are the founders of Zion? They wouldn't know any different, would they?

Dont forget what Merovingian sai to Persephone after she handed over the key maker Merovingian:" this is just a game" reffering to the matrix to which Persephone replies " So is this" dont get hung up on the multiple neo in the architecs room it means nothing. the question u should be asking is was Agent Smith SUPPOSED TO HAVE BEEN FREED BY NEO or is he now the wild card in the matrix. dont forget smith is quite mad he is looking for purpose he has lost focus on what he is supposed to do and is losing him mind. now i'm sure he has seen previous rebbots of the matrix because of what he said at the start its happening like before .....well not exactly . this could mean the fact that he is free and able to copy himself. either way thing are not going according to plan. for the matrix or for zion........or are they ;-)

Wow! where to start... I think the only theory that really makes any sense is that there are two related matrices. There are many reasons for this. First, just the name "matrix reloaded" should be a clue. If there have been 5 other neos', it likely means that they adjust and "reload" the matrix (including Zion through discovery and destruction) . This does not mean that there is no human component, there likely is. The "matrix" as we know it is comprised of both those who accept the matrix as reality and Zion which is comprised of those who reject the matrix and made a different "choice". The oracle taught the architect through a programmatic method on humanity, that humans needed choice, the program provided it. Other clues that this may be the case are the fact that there are 250,000 inhabitants of Zion. If Zion has been rebuilt 5 times or so from a small population, how long would it take to reach that number? Agent Smith may be another clue. How does he cross over to the human side? I know it looks like he could cross the same way the other digital information does to the other persons brain. I am not so sure that he could come over like that, but if the person on the other end is actually another program, it could easily happen. I think Agent Smith represents a virus in the matrix. He is on both sides now, it should be interesting to see what happens with him. My last evidence for the other matrix is Neo stopping a machine or "feeling them" I think he is on the verge of realizing that he is in a matrix on both sides and his program had to be paused.

Let's look at the architects statement:
The Architect - The function of the One is now to return to the source, allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry, reinserting the prime program. After which you will be required to select from the matrix 23 individuals, 16 female, 7 male, to rebuild Zion. Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash killing everyone connected to the matrix, which coupled with the extermination of Zion will ultimately result in the extinction of the entire human race.

Neo is to return to the source. They want to look at the code and try to further adjust due to what they learn from his code. I would assume that it is the choice that has been made before. The matrix needs the zion choice, if it is eliminated they risk the loss of all. He has made a more emotional choice this time and I would think a different choice, which leads us to see if it does result in the total destruction of the matrix or another unpredicted result. The architect puts another clue that this last choice may have been different since he states that he and NEO will not meet again. He wasn't supposed to be able to save Trinity either, but he did.. something is already different... on to part III

I have a lot more.. but enough for now..

There's one point that seems to be missing from this convo:

The fact that everything/everyone in the Matrix has been there to rob Neo of his choice.

You see, machines and machines, and as such, they do not have "free will," so they cannot make choices. Only humans can make choices. The machines need Neo to make a choice, but they can't make the choice for him. They can only set up the stage, make everything appear to him as if he has no choice, but he always has a choice. It's pretty strange to me that the Oracle says to Neo that "But you realize you've already made the choice, now you just have to understand why." That is all BS. He ALWAYS has a choice. What the Matrix is trying to convince him of is that he DOES NOT have a choice, hence he will do what the Matrix wants him to do.

It draws a very interesting similarity to another Keanu Reeves movie, The Devil's Advocate. In the final scene when he meets up with Al Pacino/Satan, and convinces Satan of "setting him up," Satan responds "I don't do that!" He sets the stage, he loads (reloads ;) the gun, but only YOU, the ONE with the CHOICE, can pull the trigger. That is why the machines need humans and need Neo, because they NEED Neo to make the CHOICE for them. Just like Satan cannot make you do something evil, but he can make you feel like you have no choice, and make intricate illusions all around you. But you ALWAYS have a choice.

It seems plausible that the Matrix within the Matrix theory holds true. If you're looking stricly from a real-world perspective, he couldn't have stopped the sentinels. To add further credence to this, it helps to realize that Neo was being played not only within the Matrix, but within Zion (the other Matrix). It seems pretty coincidental that those "dreams" Neo had were not only of the future, but also came at the "right" time. Seems like these dreams were being implanted into Neo's head, furthermore convincing him that "Trinity will die" and that there is no getting around it, hence, once again, ROBBING HIM OF HIS CHOICE!

That's what Neo must have realized that the other 5 did not realize, that he ALWAYS has a choice and ironically, is it that choice that is the ANOMALY!

Just a few other points here:

I believe that Persephone is truly the mother of the Matrix (or at least seems to be the best candidate), rather than the Oracle. The Oracle is too weak o