Matrix Reloaded Theory and Matrix Reloaded Discussion
May 22nd, 2003 at 3:54 pm (Film Discussion)
Looking through the logs on my web server I can see that the two most popular google web searches hitting my site are by far “matrix reloaded theory” and “matrix reloaded discussion”. If you landed here looking for information on what ‘really’ happened in Reloaded I suggest you start by reading the Matrix Reloaded Architect Transcript, posted yesterday. If you want some better dirt and are not afraid of spoilers then go ahead and aim your browsers at last Monday’s Dark Horizons. Garth posted some tasty scoop on the new movies based on video from the video game. I have refused to read the spoiler-laden report in a (futile?) hope of keeping some sense of surprise and suspense coming into the third movie, but you don’t mind spoilers that may have what you are looking for.
While you are welcome to post your thoughts here, a message board with the ability to handle threading has been set up at http://homenetz.com/matrixreloaded/ to handle Matrix Theory discussion.
Nick said,
May 23, 2003 at 12:57 am
Thought I’d give you my take on the movie (review sent to one of my other friends):
Welp, saw it.
I’d say it’s about an equal sequel to LOTR: TTT. Okay movie, but nothing special except mostly the lingering feelings from the first one. I was going in it a little hopeful because John had seen it this afternoon with a friend and both had really liked it. Apparently, I’m “gay” because I didn’t. It had moments, but its highs weren’t very high. Its lows just weren’t that low either. It was just flat throughout. I’ve been thinking all night since I saw it and I think these are the problems I saw:
1) The story is there. It had potential with the idea that the myth is dead, the prophecy unravelled, that the One was intended by the Architect as an answer to the problem of free will. But it didn’t really build to it. It needed to build to that revelation in the same way that you built in the first film towards the alice-through-the-looking-glass moment and later to the revelation that New is the One. I never felt it. There should have been despair and surprise on Neo’s part. Morpheus almost had it. But I never felt like something important had happened, but we should have. The world should have collapsed at that moment. It came across like geek trivia about some obscure Star Trek episode: “Cool, Klingons and Humans both came from a super-alient race millions of years ago…” or whatever.
2) The peripherary characters and elements didn’t have much of an impact either. Agent Smith almost does except that he keeps creeping in everywhere without any suspense. The information guy and Monica Belluci seem like just excuses to have a nother “cool battle” and introduce the “ghosts”.
3) I never felt much impending doom or suspense. In the first one, you don’t know who might be taken out. Hell, half the crew is gone quite quickly. You suspect that Morpheus may have to sacrifice his life for Neo. You suspect that maybe Morpheus is the One, not Neo. Maybe Trinity will eat it. And when there’s a battle it’s really for their life. The Neo battles a) didn’t make much sense except that there are upgrades and Smith can copy himself. But hell, he jumped into Smith and exploded the fool from the inside. He resurrects Trinity. He seems to just be playing around so that people can get away or whatever. The scene I felt the most suspense on was Trinity’s leap of doom at the end, yet they just give you a very brief opening with it and then rehash it briefly at the end and by the time there’s suspense you see Neo flying like Superman spinning the world backwards and you know he’ll catch her.
4) The action sequences just weren’t as good, emotionally, as in the first film. Part of it is just the nature of the battles. Neo is such a stud, it wouldn’t make sense for him to fight one agent or one Smith, so they have to throw several at him. So it ends up just being New spinning a lot kicking people away. They almost overcame this problem for a little bit with the multiple-Smiths-getting-their-asses-wupped-with-a-pole sequence. They allowed the action to focus here and there for some interesting visuals. The first film was more the equivalent of Rocky battles. Mano a mano with focus and suspense. This was more like a video game where button-mashing rules. It was all about quanitity, not quality. I got a sense in the first one that the Wachowskis really loved each frame of film. The Lobby scene illustrates it best because of how you can see each and every piece of rock exploding from the columns. The action was almost secondary to each of those pieces of columns. There wasn’t that kind of patience or love of each frame in this one. It was just guys doing as many kicks as possible.
Ultimately, the first film romanced us, this one just wants to lay on its back and let us do our business. It just doens’t have the passion and doesn’t have the enjoyment for the spaces between the fluff.
cersei said,
May 23, 2003 at 11:26 pm
Just seen The Matrix Reloaded (thought was just clever hollywood gimmick title but has real depth when the plot is revealed…. more on this later)…only my first viewing so forgive me if some things I point out may be incorrect…
so, what’s bad? the “action”…which for majority was flat and felt “dead”…why? my opinion is way too much CGI (and when you can tell it’s CGI, that’s bad CGI) and too little “real world” wire-fu which made the first one so stand out. Compare for instance ANY fight scene in Matrix (eg Dojo, Wetwall fight, Subway) and it way outshines any in Reloaded (only the brief, possibly pointless, fight between Neo and Seraph as well as Trinity’s fight with the Agents remotely resembles the raw essense of first film).
The so-called rave scene is not as bad as people make it out to be…it serves to demonstrate people struggling against the odds and have such faith to “party on” despite impending doom (coz the “One” will save them?)ok, Morpheus speech was corny but kinda necessary as he gave one of realism filled with hope (vs what the Commander whom would have prefered to hide the worst)..
what’s good? as it turns out, plenty! Just when I thought, “Groan, is it going to be one after another CGI action sequences?” the W Brothers goes and proves to us why they are one of the premier filmakers around (granted they have to date only 3 films to their name ;P)…The sheer scale of the story towards the end…was..breath-taking…so much so I came out stunned….I must admit it took me next few hours to think things through plus help of discussions to realise where this story was going…which of course blew me away even more (and yes, making it an instant must-see-again)
SPOILERS ahead: it’s been well discussed in this forum so I will try not to repeat everything pointed out..
My “conclusion” from this movie is the “real world” is not really but only exists as a sub (or parallel) programme to the Matrix…SO Zion was created to cater for the 1% of population whom would reject The Matrix otherwise, resulting in excessive “crop loss” which would have made the Computers try to salvage them..Thus these people continue to “live on” in Zion believing themselves to be free but in reality they are all still attached to the same system and utilised as batteries too. (this also explains why Smith could transport himself into the “real world” since it’s only another programme anyway)
However, in creating this system, an anomaly (ie bug) has arisen which the Architect (ie programmer) tries as he does cannot get rid of….this anomaly is Neo….instead he realizes the way to rid of it is to set up this elaborate “destiny” for him to run its cycle and bring it back to The Source where his programme is recycled back in (ie bug fixed) and the entire programme ( I believe this includes both The Matrix and Zion….how else do you explain how they maintain The Matrix in the late 90’s/00’s despite all this apparently taking place hundreds of years in future? ) is reloaded (hence the clever title). So to help this along, programmes like The Oracle (yes she is “one of the bad guys” so to speak) and Keymaker are created…all to bring Neo to the Architect seemingly oon his own free will but (as Merovingon pointed out) it is not of course…What he did do different this time is instead of going into the Source Door and save humanity (the alleged 21 survivors of Zion to rebuild again but in reality a reload), he chose the Matrix Door in order to save Humanity and thus dooming all mankind since this anomaly will wreck the entire programme (inc Zion programme presumably) in time and destroy every last human….
BUT! the catch is in performing this new, unexpected action the anomaly ie Neo is now changed as a result and for the first time is able to perceive Zion as also being a programme (eg disabling the Sentinels)…for the first time possibly the Computers are truly scared (since they were obviously not at end of first movie since this is all going according to plan and has already happenened 5 previous times…) of what he could do..
Many theories abound of many things…..which of course can only be resolved in Revolutions…but we can always speculate
Since it is all a programme…how do we know what the real world is like at all??? Maybe there is no real world left? Maybe it is still a paradise? It could easily be Aliens are controlling the Matrix etc…However this would be a cop-out and I believe the W Brothers will not do that to us….
how to end this movie? a happy Hollywood ending with humans all being awaken by Neo and defeating the machines? a sad cynical we are all still and will be forever stuck in the Matrix/Zion/programme? A Happyish ending is most probable BUT as has been pointed out, one of main 3 will probably die…or rather the one theory I favour the most is Neo is NOT human and as such will realise he is only a programme himself set up by the Architect to deal with the anomaly to enable reloading the system and ironically though designed (like the Oracle) to help enslave humans, ends up (due to love for Trinity) saving them and in doing so, making himself as a programme obsolete…
One probable outcome is one that Machines are not as “evil” as made out to be and in fact a solution requiring cooperation is the answer….thus the speech with Council leader regarding Machines and Man requiring each other….and as hinted in the Animatrix episode, the Machines did try to make it up with Man…
What is Agent Smith’s role in all this? Just to provide a nemesis for Neo? or much more integral to the plot? Some suggest he is a previous One though I don’t find this argument that compelling…(more likely is Merovingon is a previous One..as maybe Seraph, Oracle’s protector)
A mention is made of “The Mother of the Matrix” by the Architect in which Neo asks, “The Oracle?” in which the former is bemused and laughs (since The Oracle is only a lesser programme designed by him anyway). Others feel Trinity is more then she seems and may in fact be this “Mother”…again, I don’t know why people feel so…another suggestion is she is the real “The One” since it is by her that humanity will be saved….(remembering of course all this The One hokey pokey is made up by the machines anyway)
Conclusion? Make sure you book your tickets to see The Matrix Revolutions (more hints in this title?) One thing is for sure, the W Brothers will succeed in making a truly deep and clever film with a killer trilogy twist disguised as “an action film”…
jimbo said,
May 24, 2003 at 3:47 pm
After seeing the movie and reading your comments about the true nature of the matrix… a thought just hit me like a ton of bricks that could be a possible ending, but if not is crazy nonetheless. What if the matrix is not a “prison” for humans, but a way to contain the machines instead? Bear with me here, maybe the humans created the matrix as a way to defeat the machines, as a way to hide the truth from them? You mentioned how Neo could be a program… what if everyone is a program EXCEPT Neo? I dunno, maybe this has some serious holes and maybe I didn’t think it through enough, but it is an interesting possibility.
Leopoldo said,
May 24, 2003 at 6:16 pm
Cersei: Nice analysis. Thank you for taking the time to write up the full post. I won’t comment on most of it because… well because I agree with your conclusion, we will just have to wait and see. I did want to mention one thought though: When we first say Agent Smith he is with Agent Smith. Smith1 says ‘it is all going according to plan’ Smith2 says ‘it is happening like it did before’ at which point Smith1 grins and says ‘not exactly’. I think there is some foreshadowing here that Smith has a larger part to play on interrupting the cycle.
Chris Centamore said,
May 24, 2003 at 10:53 pm
All very interesting commentary. I thought of something that supports the theory that the “outside world” is not in fact the “real outside world.” The first Matrix film was so interesting to me because I thought it was a neat expansion of Plato’s cave allegory.
In brief, the allegory imagines our perception of the world as a viewing of shadows on the wall of a cave in which we’re chained. If we could be persuaded to turn around we would see that the images we think are real are just shadows cast by forms being paraded in front of a fire. If we could then escape our chains and actually exit the cave we would see the real things on which the froms are based.
Turning around would be the escape from the Matrix to the “outside world.” This was done in the original matrix movie. If the W brothers stick with Plato, then the real exit from the cave would be the escape from the “outside world” to the “real outside world.”
Anybody else get Plato out of this movie?
Cersei said,
May 24, 2003 at 11:58 pm
Good point on Agent Smith…and one more thing I realise abput him is I think he is able to sense where Neo is in the Matrix and thus come to him (even ina Back Door corridor) making remarks like He is expecting him (even if Neo is too stupid not to expect Smith)
Plato concept is good Chris….must read up on that.
I have read about Gnostics features possibly being very strong in even the original Matrix…I think the term Gnostic is actually used in Reloaded….can’t quite rememeber where hehe…ah well back for third viewing next week
ken said,
May 25, 2003 at 12:32 am
Thank you.
I went to see it alone and came out very puzzled. You have helped clarify this tremendously.
I figured the movie would suck because the intellectual part of the first one was learning and understanding the premise along with Neo (along with some kickass violence (i.e. the lobby scene)). Once the premise is in place, I expected Reloaded to simply be “the battle”.
The premise was expanded this time, though there was so little focus on it that I had to come here to understand (and I’m not stupid). The problem with Reloaded is too much emphasis on the hyperactive fight scenes. That is not what made the first film. It was the questions and Neo learning the answers. BTW did anyone notice how no one ever seemed to die in the fight scenes? Neo just seemed to kick, punch and throw people who couldn’t be hurt by kicks or punchs. In the many Agent Smith thing, why not stick the steel pole through a few of them? Even in the twin staircase scene where Neo has spears and swords, until the end he doesn’t stab or slice anyone. Why?
Now after that long diatribe, a few questions. 1)In the first film Neo kills Smith. Now he is back. How? 2) Neo had killed Smith by entering him and blowing him up. Why didn’t he do this to anyone in this film? Especially, “the Architect”? 3) If Neo can and does manipulate the matrix, why can’t he simply appear anywhere he wants just like agents? 4)What is the deal with the neuroconnectors allover their bodies? Didn’t they remove all but the one on the back of Neo’s head in the first film? Now their back? And not to be picky but did anyone notice the apparent lack of one on the back of Neo’s head during the arrival in Zion scenes? 5)I got the impression in the first film that people like Morpheus and Trinity who had been in the Matrix had never actually seen Zion. Now it seems that all the ships routinely come and go. Did I get this wrong? Might have to get out the tape.
Nimod said,
May 25, 2003 at 9:04 am
There is one thing that confuses me the most.
Why were the agents after the keymaker ? If the keymaker’s role was to bring the One to the Architect, why try to stop it?
Timelord said,
May 25, 2003 at 9:06 am
hmmmmm juicy. well all very good points as a side note yes the movie is based alot on the bible. now as i see it yes the movie wasnt as great as the first but i dont expect it could have been. the first was a sleeper nobody expected it to be good thats why it was. regardless lets move on, what are the facts. 1)Zion is without a doubt another form of controll(real or not) 2) Neo isnt the saviour he is made out to be 3) He can (seemingly) controll sentinels.
what does this all mean. this means more sleepless nights of me pondering what the hell is going on, but the possibilities are mouth watering as has been pointed out smith can move to the real world. as a side note if Neo is a program inserted into the matrix that might explain alot. The computers might have downloaded the Neo program into one of the babies u see in the matrix like smith can take over human bodies Neo might be a computer in a human body. that may explain how he can controll sentinels but i think that zion is more than likely another part of the matrix program. did any of u catch the revolutions preview at the end of the movie. A Smith it would seem does play a very pivotal role in the final movie. anyway just wanted to say my peace
makfu said,
May 25, 2003 at 10:32 am
I actually thought this movie was as good as the first, if not better, including the terrific action sequences. What really made the movie for me, however, was the interaction between the main players and the various “programs” of the matrix. A couple of quick notes:
1. As stated by The Merovingian choice is merely an illusion created by those in control.
2. If this is the case, then every decision made in the first Matrix, including Neo’s choice to exit “The Matrix” has been pre-ordained.
3. There is transitiveness to the various revisions of the Matrix. Specifically, Persephone states that two programs were kept from early versions of the Matrix.
4. The Matrix, if defined by its name, is multifaceted and multidimensional, not the simple “flat” 20th century world we were first led to believe it was.
5. One has to wonder if The Matrix is responsible for more of humanities history and mythology than the “Real World” was. The Oracle statement that not many but EVERY mythological creature’s existence was the result of errant programs. This is further reinforced by the programs mentioned in point 3.
6. It would seem clear that Zion is most likely not the “Real World”. Methinks “Revolutions” is going to be one hell of an interesting ride.
All I can say is that the concepts presented throughout both movies are mind-bending. Philip K. Dick would have adored both movies.
Dirrty Sanchez said,
May 25, 2003 at 10:40 am
How can the matrix be destroyed? If it is destroyed. If it is destroyed the humans will wake into a world unhospitable by humans because of scorched skys and least of all the abundance of deadly robots. As said in reloaded the machines need the humans as much as the humans need the machines(the matrix) oh and
1, You never see neo and trinity being unplugged from the matrix at the end
2, The Matrix RELOADED dont the name say it all?????
Ryan Tannah said,
May 25, 2003 at 12:06 pm
Just a thought..
Firstly, assume that the Animatrix is not tricking fans and that there really was a war between humans and robots and that robots actually did create the matrix to control humans.
Thinking like a computer, it would make much sense for there to be infinite subworlds thereby being certain that no human will ever reject the matrix and thus having 100% of all humans under control.
Assuming this to be true, whether they are currently in the real world then doesn’t have much importance. More importantly is the question that has come up over and over again…what is Neo’s purpose?
Possibly the matrix isn’t merely the robot attempt at controlling humans but is actually a second attempt at creating peace between humans and robots. This not only lines up with the Animatrix where robots are seen as peace loving, but it also provides another explanation for Neo’s purpose.
Neo is the robot attempt of living in the matrix. Neo is pinnochio but he doesn’t know it yet. He is the 6th attempt at making a robot live as a human. This explains his super powers. As the 6th version, they were successful at making a robot love within the matrix but still they weren’t successful at making him believe he is normal. The reason then for the computers wanting him to go back to the designer is this: ultimatum. It was the final test to see if they are successful at making the robot think logically or emotionally.
….just speculating here…
jbarrington said,
May 25, 2003 at 2:18 pm
I’ve enjoyed reading the comments and speculations about what could/might be happening now and heading into the trilogy wrap-up.
There are things that I continue to wonder about within this second movie (and some from the first).
1) When Neo visits the Oracle, he vanishes from the Nebuchadnezzar’s program screen. When he visits the Architect, the same thing happens again. Neo had to jump through hoops to get to the hallway leading to the Architect, but Agent Smith didn’t. Hmmm… (It makes me feel that everyone is working together.)
2) The Key-maker can make a key to unlock any door and seemingly make it lead to anywhere, *except* for the door that he was locked in.
3) Why does Neo appear to continue to trust people for guidance within the Matrix? The Oracle when he finds out she’s part of the program? The Architect when he is telling Neo about the two doors?
4) In the first movie, Morpheus has a Dojo fight that appears to get him ready for the first meeting of the Oracle. In the second movie, he has another Dojo type fight before he can meet the Oracle again. Hmmm… (Is Morpheus connected to the Oracle? A possible clue about the “real world”?)
5) Who’s to say that another program has never left out of the Matrix before Agent Smith. The Architect has said there were others before Neo. Perhaps some have set their own “Agent”, or have released other program free. Perhaps this agent or program took over a body, too.
6) Is Zion the next (beta) version of the Matrix.
7) I’ve seen many references to religious philosophy, but I haven’t seen too much as far as references about it’s connections to “Alice in Wonderland”. How would/could it’s ending influence the third movie. Alice came out of it as a dream. Something that just didn’t happen.
8) Ever notice that Morpheus is always sitting in the same red wingback chair whenever he’s in the Matrix or in a training program talking to Neo? Even in the second movie he has it. The only time that he wasn’t sitting in it was when Agent Smith was beating the you-know-what out of him. (Must be really comfortable to justify lugging it everywhere.)
9) Why was Morpheus able to resist the severe Agent Smith torture? He was better than half way out of his skull, but he was able to pull it together to run for Neo and the helicopter. (I’m leaning towards Morpheus will morph into something else; something bad or very, very good.)
Mick said,
May 25, 2003 at 2:45 pm
if that was the case (zion a programme), then wouldnt it of programmed the sentinals to blow up the ship which forced trinity into the matrix. Because of trinity going into the matrix, it influenced neos decision of his choice of doors.
Throwaway Hero said,
May 25, 2003 at 3:58 pm
perhaps the ‘architect’ just lied to Neo to scare the crap out of him and confuse him…and as for stopping the sentinels, he’s part machine.
jbarrington said,
May 25, 2003 at 5:47 pm
>if zion was a programme, then
>wouldnt it of programmed the
>sentinals to blow up the ship
>which forced trinity into the
>matrix.
Possible, but everything else almost appears to be pushing Neo in one direction as if it’s a special task that needs to be performed. If he can’t figure out how to do the next task, he dies. If he can, he moves forward until the Matrix can figure out how to kill, distract, or disillusion him. The clues in the picture are causing Neo, as well as us, to think about what is true or false. If anything looked too phony, then Neo would realize everything is a fake and wouldn’t perform the task that the Architect may want done (in this oversized video game). If he can figure out how to do the next task, he doesn’t die and moves on until “gameover”.
>Because of trinity going
>into the matrix, it influenced
>neos decision of his choice of
>doors.
This version of “Neo” (if we can trust the Architect) appears to have went against logic or the logical choice. Instead of the deed being for the good of the many, Neo’s love of Trinity seems to have influenced the deed towards the good of the one. Besides, it appears that the other past “Neos” made the logical choice of the many which seems to have continued this weird cycle of new Zions (perhaps?).
jbarrington said,
May 25, 2003 at 7:10 pm
Here’s another question or two:
Why is Neo having various visions (psychic) of a future within mega software program while in Zion? (Zion is part of the Matrix at some level?)
How does the big “A” know and see what is happening to Trinity while talking to Neo? Sounds like a Zion setup.
Why does the big “A” (alpha?) refer to “we” instead of me or I, since it is felt that he is the top dog?
timelord said,
May 25, 2003 at 8:37 pm
look the point has been brought up before the matriz is just a power plant the sentinels are just the clean up crew the real robotic race is in controll of the world and if thats the case they have bigger fish to fry than just taking down the matrix. and a flaw in the matrix story if the computers have been around for more than 700 year as the architect says why havent they developed other forms of energy like cold fusion i mean come on they can make the matrix but they cant figure out how to fuse atoms? sounds starnge but maybe thats just me
Tam said,
May 25, 2003 at 9:33 pm
I think all of these comments are honestly brilliant. Coming out of the movie, I was somewhat confused as to the significance of choice. The only possible flaw that I see with your arguements is that they might be TOO good, in the sense that if zio were another matrix this must be made comprehensible in a two hour movie, and I am not so sure this is possible….just a though
s said,
May 25, 2003 at 10:00 pm
Zion is also the Matrix? That would be interesting, but I am surprised that no one here has thought of the following: This is the impression I got after seeing it…The prophecy of The One is still true. As soon as Neo stops the sentinals, it proves that his power can also extend to the real world. He is yet to realise that he is truly The One since he defied the Architect and chose not to chose (contrary to what the Architect anticipated) He knew he could save both Zion and Trinity - so he did.
Neo’s powers have been possible in the Matrix because he is the One. These powers are also possible in the real world for the same reason - he is yet to realise this.
The reason I think this is the fact that the people of Zion seem to be very relegious (eg the prayers prior to the rave). Their faith is in The One saving them. Neo has been focusing all his energy on battling within the matrix, instead he should be doing it in the real world, where his powers still reside since he is The One. This is why Agent Smith is set on getting out of the matrix, so he can continue his pursuit of Neo.
I suppose all will be revealed come November.
NERV said,
May 25, 2003 at 10:00 pm
I have some info on a subject that no one has touched yet. As some of you may know the video game “Enter The Matrix” was made alongside “Matrix: Reloaded” and was written and directed by the Wachowski brothers. The game contains 1 hour of exclusive footage that follows the paths of Niobe and Ghost onboard The Logos. After playing the game as both Niobe and Ghost I understand the film much better and have some info on the next installment in The Matrix trilogy.
WARNING! SPOILERS AHEAD:
1)There is a scene in what appears to be the subway that appeared in the first film. Niobe and Ghost are using the payphone there to exit the matrix. After Ghost exits a voice is heard in the darkness which speaks “72 Hours…”. Niobe askes who is there and the voice is heard again, this time a figure of a man wearing old dirty clothes and long hair appears. “72 hours…. That’s how long Zion lasted last time.” Niobe askes who he is and why he’s here. And the man answeres, “Me? I’m just a spectator here to enjoy the ride… 72 hours…” And he disappears into the darkness.
After watching the film tonight I noticed what seems to be that character. When Neo and crew go to see the Merovingian there is a quick cut of a man being escourted by authorities away from the Merovingian which seems to be the man seen in the game. Also at the end of the game a sequence similar to the trailer for Revolutions that is viewable at the end of Reloaded is shown in which that character appears once again, this time laughing. I am sure we will see him once again in Revolutions.
2)There is a scene in the game where Sereph is talking to The Oracle about contacting Niobe and Ghost. But the actress in the game looks similar but is NOT the same Oracle seen in the first and second movies. At first I thought that somehow the original actress was unavailable to appear in the game, but later (which ever character you play as in the game) visits The Oracle. She explains that The Merovingian saught revenge on her (his dislike for The Oracle is seen in the film) and she was forced to assume a different appearance. What the Merovingian did exactly is unknown. At the end of the film in the preview for Revolutions the narroration appears to be from the oracle. BUT the voice is not the same! Having listened to both I am absolutely sure that the voice belongs to this second Oracle. I am sure that we will see this other Oracle in Revolutions.
3)Earlier in this discussion someone suggested that Smith knows where Neo is at all times. This is disproven in the game. After your character talks to The Oracle Sereph escourts you to the white programmer’s hallway. As you walk to your door a door opens infront of you and none other than Smith walks out. He says “Damn…, not who I was looking for… But maybe you can help me…” Then you say “You’re an Agent” and Smith responds “No, not anymore… I am the alpha…to your omega… The beginning to your end…” And soon the hallway is packed with Smiths. It may be true that he can monitor if someone is in the hallway but he does not know who.
Those are important parts of the game footage that effect the possible outcome of the story. But there is much more footage that details the characters and their relationships (ie. Niobe and Lock, Ghost and Trinity, Bane (man who is “posessed” by Smith), and others). I highly recommend any Matrix fan play the game or at least visit a friend who has beaten it to view the sequences (all movies are available through the “Hacking” feature if you know how.) If I come up with something i’ve missed then I will post it.
Fred said,
May 25, 2003 at 10:03 pm
The biggest question, that seems to ellude you all, is why does Neo turn to the dark-side, and how does he become Darth Vader?
s said,
May 25, 2003 at 10:31 pm
Oh my god. trinity is neo’s sister.
matt said,
May 25, 2003 at 11:36 pm
(1) In response to the comments about the Oracle changing her appearance and her voice in the Enter the Matrix videogame. …You were right, the original actress who played the Oracle in The Matrix and The Matrix Reloaded, Gloria Foster, was unavailable because she died at age 68 in 2001 after completing her Reloaded scenes, but before doing any of her Revolutions scenes, and presumably her scenes or voiceovers for the videogame. I think the Brothers W wrote in the part about the Merovingian being hot on her trail so that they could substitute a new actress. I agree with your observation that the voiceover in the post-Reloaded Revolutions trailer is probably the Oracle, and the voice sounds noticeably different.
(2) Here’s a new thought, I think — please shoot it down if I am wrong. It seems to me that Councilor Hamman (played by Anthony Zerbe) knows a lot more than he’s letting on. Seeing as Zion, whether it’s the real world or just another level of the Matrix, has supposedly started over with twenty-three people five times already, is it possible that Hamman is in fact The One #5? In other words, is it possible that Hamman was the Neo of the last generation of humans that rejected the Matrix, and that he “reloaded the Matrix” and got 22 other people to start up the Zion that Neo, Morpheus, and Trinity now know? … I’m not sure this makes any sense, since if Hamman had already done all that Neo will have to do, you’d think he’d give Neo some advice about how to do it better … but maybe that’s just what the “engineering level” scene was all about, and maybe Neo heard what he needed to hear, enabling him to choose the door to his left.
(3) I agree that Smith will play a big role in the next movie, but I don’t think it’s necessarily because he’s all a part of the Architect’s larger plan. Rather, I’m betting that Smith is a new anomoly that might wreck the whole thing for the Machines. That is to say, Smith is apparently the program (and artificial intelligence) that is the most sentient and self-interested (at least as much so as the Merovingian). Just because he’s not human doesn’t mean that his interests align with the Machines and the Matrix as a whole (as Reloaded has revealed). So maybe in his own self-interest, whatever that is, he will do something that will screw up things in a way that even the Architect didn’t anticipate.
(4) As to which of the big three, Neo, Morpheus, or Trinity, will finally die in Revolutions, I think the explanation above about Neo discovering he is really a program is really very elegant and thoughtful. …But I also have to suggest that Morpheus is bound to die in Revolutions too. In Reloaded he proved himself to be a zealot — too dedicated to his belief. And I saw Reeves, Moss, Fishbourne, and producer Joel Silver on The Charlie Rose Show (a PBS talkshow), and Fishbourne, having the benefit of having already filmed The Matrix Revolutions, characterized his character, Morpheus, as the “dark mentor.” In The Matrix, Morpheus was the uber-cool, and utterly calm leader/mentor and revealer of the truth to Neo. In Reloaded, he was shown to be something not too far from a religious nut who’s helped doom humanity (or at least continue to constrain it to the Matrix) with his unquestioning faith. His faith now shattered, I suggest that in Revolutions, he might just go off the deep end and really become a dark character in some way, thus setting himself up for an inevitable demise, ala anakin skywalker/darth vader, i.e., a gifted good guy gone dark with disillusionment (sorry to bring in star wars). Did anyone else notice that Morpheus is not in much, if any, of the Revolutions trailer?
(5) Lastly, a question: Am I the only one who gets the sense that in the Matrix, there is only one nameless City. They refer to everything as though there is really only one exemplar of each thing inside the Matrix: e.g., THE freeway, and THE mountains. It makes me wonder if in the Matrix, the Architect has made the earth flat, just to keep it simpler. In the Matrix, when first being interrogated by the agents, Neo tells them that they can’t scare him with their Gestapo tactics, and in the Architect’s room, images of past atrocities from history and various parts of the world show up on the video screens (e.g., Hitler, world hunger, and also, if I am not mistaken, U.S. Sec. of Defense Donald Rumsfeld), indicating that in the Matrix, people are aware of a rich history — but just because there is a Gesatpo and Hitler and third-world starvation, doesn’t mean that it’s the same history that you and I know involving different nations. Maybe in the Matrix, there is only one country, only one set of mountains, only one freeway, only one city, and all human history, good and bad, has all pretty much happened there around that city.
tom said,
May 26, 2003 at 12:15 am
My theory,
Assume that Zion is in fact an outer Matrix. Now assume that in the REAL world machines are really fighting mankind. Given that the best chess player (strategist) in the world (human or machine) is in fact human and that he can beat a machine by making choices that are not based on pure logic (otherwise the machine would win). Then would a machine not try and understand those choices in order to better compete.
So the machines create a matrix, and a matrix inside that to simulate a struggle / war where they have to “make” real choices with real consequences. The whole using humans for energy is simply something made up by the machines so that the people of Zion (the real people plugged into the Matrix from the real world) believe in the inner Matrix.
The machines are simply trying to understand choice in order to destroy us. The versioning is analogous to evolution. Evolution is not, just a gradual process but occurs in stages. When a certain level of awareness is attained, previous models of understanding become unsustainable and the system appears to disolve and needs to be reconstructed under a different paradigm. Humans have evolved through mystic, rational, post-modern etc. views of the world. The previous model of the world is seen as incomplete and the world needs to be reconstructed in our collective minds. Each time - each phase in understanding - gives us greater self-awareness (as with the machines). But it is a continuous growth, with a cycle of destruction and reconstrution.
Further I think Neo’s path is playing out as the Architect predicted, even his choice at the end. I think salvation will come from somewhere else, from another anomaly not accounted for by the system.
Just my two cents worth.
tom said,
May 26, 2003 at 12:25 am
Just to add to my last post, a quote by our dear friend Spock.
“Logic clearly dictates that the needs of the many out weight the needs of the few”.
Versions 1->5 made the logical choice and choose to save the many. Version 6 has made the emotional choice to save one.
Also in this scenario, the Oracle wasn’t developed to understand existing humans so as to control them, but so as to help the architect emulate them - the aim being to make machines more powerful.
jbarrington said,
May 26, 2003 at 5:31 am
matt Wrote:
>is it possible that(Councilor)Hamman
>is in fact The One #5?
This is one of those obvious questions that a person forgets to ask. Good point. Who was the last “One”? Hamman would make an interesting choice. He did take Neo for a private tour and talked a little shop talk with him.
tom wrote:
>Given that the best chess player
>in the world is in fact human
>and that he can beat a machine
>by making choices that are not
>based on pure logic.
I had some of the same feelings of IBM’s “Deep Blue” scenario was being presented when Neo was meeting the Big “A”.
>So the machines create a matrix,
>and a matrix inside… humans for
>energy is …made up by the machines
>so that the people of Zion (the real
>people plugged into the Matrix from
>the real world) believe in the inner
>Matrix.
This seems to be the most logical to a point. How do you keep your best and the brightest batteries entertained while learning how to make the Matrix program smarter (software evolution). Create an outside world (Zion) for the best of the best in the matrix to struggle towards. Once they get there, they refocus their energy back into saving the people within the matrix. This would keep them from thinking about “Is there another level beyond Zion?” Also, Why is there just one city (Zion)? There is no real mention of other cities. (Although, I believe there was one mention in the original Matrix about the last remaining city.) You would think that the past version of the “Ones” would have tried their best to scatter the population out.
>The versioning is analogous to
>evolution. Evolution is not,
>just a gradual process but
>occurs in stages.
Bingo.
>Neo’s path is playing out as
>the Architect predicted, even
>his choice at the end.
I’m not sure how to think about this yet. Neo may have surprised the Architect by taking/making the illogical choice. However, saving the queen and perhaps *potentially* giving up all/some the other chess pieces could be interesting …
>I think
>salvation will come from
>somewhere else, from another
>anomaly not accounted for by
>the system.
Agent smith could be the answer here. Neo hasn’t jump into any other program and exploded it from the inside out. Perhaps Neo ended up performing a little reprogramming of the Agent virus with his own virus (in the original matrix). Perhaps when he did battle with the Agent Smith in the second movie, Neo caused the virus to replicate even more which could come back in the next movie along with Bane (Bane sounds a lot like Cain).
>”Logic clearly dictates that
>the needs of the many out
>weight the needs of the few”.
>Versions 1->5 made the logical
>choice and choose to save the
>many. Version 6 has made the
>emotional choice to save one.
This was the same feeling that I had in an earlier post. Perhaps Neo already had seen the results of the past versions of “The One”, and now he has decided to try a different door.
Here’s something about the name about the next movie. In the dictionary, revolutions (notice the plural) really has a triple meaning. This first meaning has the obvious meaning of rebellions or riots. The second meaning has to do with transformations, alterations, or changes. The third meaning has to do with rotations or cycles.
(Revolution sounds similar to evolution in many ways.)
K. Reeves has mentioned in a past interview that the Matrix has to do with birth, life, and death. Who’s birth? Who’s life? Who’s death? Hmmm… Some of those questions could almost be applied to several levels or characters of the movie.
Jay said,
May 26, 2003 at 7:13 am
Ummm, right, here’s a thought… The Architect never actually said Zion was a program, he said Neo must choose who will restart Zion, does that not mean they’ll be taken from the farms and left in the Real World?
Even assuming I’m wrong, why choose this method of dealing with the bug? By showing Neo that he has power, surely it defeats the purpose, they could just keep him under observation, therefore not risking their power source by risking that Neo would destroy whole crops of humans.
If Zion is a program, then the machines can change it, or delete it, simple.
Why does Neo not destroy agents? Before he knows that ‘destroying’ them sets them free, there is no moral reason for him no to do it. After he meets Smith, it’s understandable that he wouldn’t want to create more agents like that.
How does Smith get to the back doors? He can no longer move like an agent, and take over anyones body, so presumably he shouldn’t have access to the back doors, only special programs like the Seraph and the Keymaker seem to be able to access there, so was this just an excuse for another lame and unfulfilling action sequence?
Matt… Councellor Hamman? Interesting point, but he would have no memory of that time if he was previously ‘The One’. Also, I agree about Smith. The Architect has spent too much time concentrating on the problem of the ‘One’, but now there is an anomalous ex-agent, who hates Neo, and we know from the first film, hates the Matrix, he also now has a copy of himself occupying a body in the Real World, whether Zion is a program or not, Smith will probably be the one to ruin the Machines in the end, and not Neo.
Neo will probably die in Revolutions, to make everyone think that the machines have won, but then Smith will do something to ruin the machines’ plan.
Well that’s about all i can think of now… I think that Zion probably is a program, as there’s no other reasonable explanation for Neo being able to ‘feel’ the sentinels.
Smith was rather superfluous in Reloaded, and not as sinister as the agents from Matrix, but it will be interesting to see his role next time.
kwoelk said,
May 26, 2003 at 7:18 am
In watching the movie a second time, at the beginning when they are showing the matrix as the flowing green characters, has anyone else noticed that the shapes look like zion? This seems to confirm that zion is still within the/a matrix.
jbarrington said,
May 26, 2003 at 10:39 am
I just want to make a quick mention that I’ve really enjoyed this board. This is one of the few where people can bounce their good/bad ideas and thoughts. The good ones keep moving forward and discussed further, and the bad ones are sometimes provided reason where it wouldn’t work. No anger. Just reason. Great stuff!!
Back to the Matrix discussion…
I agreed earlier with matt about Councellor Hamman could have been an earlier version of the one, however I started thinking more about this.
First, I’m assuming that the population of Zion has the same average number of years of life that a person would have within the Matrix (excluding the possiblity that being a coppertop could shorten a person’s life).
Second, I’m also assuming the 5th “The One” was made the same deal as Neo was made where there were twenty-three people allowed to live in Zion.
Taking in those two factors as being true, Councellor Hamman shouldn’t be the 5th “One” due to there being a population of over 250,000 people in Zion. However, if it’s true, then it could be due to there having been 5 previous versions of Zions in the last 700 years (I can’t remember the total number of years). I guess that it could be possible that some of the people were born and the rest were released over time from the billions of pods and had children within the 5th version.
jay wrote:
>The Architect never actually
>said Zion was a program, he
>said Neo must choose who will
>restart Zion, does that not
>mean they’ll be taken from
>the farms and left in the
>Real World?
Yep, if zion is the real world.
Either choice that Neo makes will result in this version Zion dying (sort of), however one choice that was mentioned has Zion rebuilt from scratch and the Matrix continues. The other choice could destroy the matrix and offer Neo hope that some of zion remains no matter how slim. The machines/software are predicting that they will win again and the people will lose.
The Architect has said:
“The function of the One is now to return to the source, allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry, reinserting the prime program. After which you will be required to select from the matrix 23 individuals, 16 female, 7 male, to rebuild Zion. Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash killing everyone connected to the matrix, which coupled with the extermination of Zion will ultimately result in the extinction of the entire human race.”
He also said:
“There are two doors. The door to your right leads to the source, and the salvation of Zion. The door to the left leads back to the matrix, to her, and to the end of your species…”
The puzzling thing for me that I can’t recall seeing is why allow zion to rebuild at all. Zion must serve a purpose as an emergency set of “D” coppertop batteries in the event the matrix ever colapses, or as an extra software layer to keep people from questioning if there could be another layer outside of zion (as a way to maintain their focus back into the matrix). I guess you could say that you still trapped, or captivated, with the Matrix.
kasha said,
May 26, 2003 at 12:17 pm
i know this might seem a strangely naive question…but the only survivor of zion, the guy shown at the end with neo, is that a copy of agent smith? if not, who is he?
Ryan Tannah said,
May 26, 2003 at 12:34 pm
Just something I noticed, in one version of the online dialogues of the architect scene it notes that all those people talking in the background screens are all of the previous “Ones” showing their reaction. This surprised me quite a lot because I had assumed those screens were displaying Neo’s inner emotions but if this is the case then Councellor Hamman isn’t a previous “One”.
“the guy shown at the end with neo, is that a copy of agent smith” Yes, the scene in Neo’s dream where agent smile connects to the hardline occured in reality bringing him into that other guy’s body.
Archie said,
May 26, 2003 at 1:00 pm
“Just something I noticed, in one version of the online dialogues of the architect scene it notes that all those people talking in the background screens are all of the previous “Ones” showing their reaction. This surprised me quite a lot because I had assumed those screens were displaying Neo’s inner emotions but if this is the case then Councellor Hamman isn’t a previous “One”.”
I had the same question but what I think those TV screens are showing are all of the possible outcomes of every decision that Neo will make. Some of his replies to questions are different , but it is interesting that all of the different outcomes end up with Neo choosing the left door. There has only been 5 previous “ones”, ranging from possibly Councellor Hamman to the Merovingian. All we know is that Thomas Anderson/Neo is the “one” number 6, and that different people have been the previous “ones”.
Archie said,
May 26, 2003 at 1:06 pm
Hey, for all of you who saw The Matrix Reloaded with the Legally Blonde 2 trailer at the beginning of it; Did any of you boo that trailer?? Cause at the theatre I went to each and every one of us (about 250 people) boo’d the living crap out of it.
Alex De Large said,
May 26, 2003 at 1:50 pm
just a couple of points
1) didn’t morpheus mention in the matrix that in the beginning there was a man born within the matrix who could bend it to his will, who freed the first of them but passed away -this seems to fit in with what the architect says in that the one has the ability to manipulate the matrix and that since he is the only one free on reboot he must start freeing people over again
2) I don’t think Smith can move into the real world. What he did was imprint his conscienciousness on the rebel about to re-enter the real world and in that way he is in the real world
3)this also seems to be what happened when neo jumped into smith at the end of the matrix -somehow part of his conscienciousness was imprinted on smith so he moved to a higher plain of understanding -he sees how to bend the rules like neo
4)neo rearranged is one it also it means new
5)I think we must take the architect at his word because otherwise its just conjecture and reloaded the title and the film would be just a red herring. So, let’s assume that ZION is real (perhaps after NEO leaves the architect he is still in the matrix because he can control the sentinals)- What he was saying was due to the nature of the human animal it is impossible (so far) to create an environment where they had complete control -due to free will i.e. choice -so they realised that they could create the illusion of choice of, a rebellion by controlling with help from the previous anomaly (who would restart the rebellion), and especially the Oracle what direction the rebellion takes. The prophecy of the one helped focus the rebels and to wait for a time when things came to a head i.e. when the rebellion had freed too many minds, the physical location of those no longer in the matrix would be destroyed (ZION) and everyone plugged in would be unaware of the matrix when it reloaded and Neo would be the only one who could remember what happened.
6) The seraph says he protects the one who matters most -I can’t figure out why but I think that is significant -although the Oracle can’t have had many scenes done before her death.
7) The conversation between Neo and the council member (”Teaspoon”) seems very strange until we meet the architect -as he says that they need each other they are codependent he seems to be trying to prepare Neo for what’s to come -and the councils insistance on letting Neo reenter the matrix -seems to go along with the idea that they know what his purpose is -to provide for the survival of the race by the reloading of the matrix because the ships they have will be no match for the sentinels
8) Those in control of the matrix are not necessarily robots -the matrix is controlled by artificial intelligence -this can take many forms but to think of it as a physical entity is misleading
Rich Lancaster said,
May 26, 2003 at 2:31 pm
Hi, great stuff guys keep it coming. I have a couple of things to add. I believe Persephone is the “Queen” that The Architect mentions. The word “Persephone” comes from greek mythology for the Queen of the underworld. Also when the architect mentions the queen neo states “The Oracle” to which the architect gives a mocking “please” as if to say “AS IF!!!” The architect mentions that “The queen” was a program that was designed to observe human behaviour, all Persephone wanted in return for giving neo the keymaker was to sample a loving kiss from him (that is a pretty big example of human behaviour don’t you think???) My second point is regards Agent Smith. Some have said his parts in the 2nd film were not required. (ie the part in the hallway before entering the source) I believe these are MASSIVELY important although I can’t quite work out why yet
Obviously his link to Neo will become important in the 3rd film as is indicated by the trailer. SIDE NOTE… Not sure if it is relevant but when Agent Smith was copying himself over other people it looked very similar to when Neo was being “freed” by morpheus and co when he touched the mirror in the first film.
Long post I know hopefully some will think this stuff is relevant
Cheers from the UK!!
NERV said,
May 26, 2003 at 2:55 pm
Rich’s post about Persephone is interesting, and makes sense to me now. Persephone has the power to read minds by kissing them. This is proven in the game. She demands a kiss from Niobe and Ghost in the game aswell. For Niobe she asks her who she is in love with. Niobe replies “Jason” and Persephone says “No… But Jason knows who it is.”
What better way to understand human nature then to be able to read what a human is thinking? What i’m wondering is exactly what information she took from Neo and what she is going to do with it. Perhaps her insurrection against her husband was a ploy to get something from Neo for The Merovingian?
jennifer said,
May 26, 2003 at 4:01 pm
I really like the idea of the Persephone character becoming more prominant, however my interest is in Agent Smith. We saw him replicating himself in Matrix Reloaded and a scene that followed containing 100 Agent Smiths. Simple mathematics, if every agent of that 100 replicated himself at a rate of simply 5 a day, and they in turn replicated another 5 each and so on and so on, by the end of the week you’d have 7,812,500 agent smiths. In one week. If he’s only replicating a small amount. Neo said “it was like dying” when Agent Smith tried to replicate him. Agent Smith is a rogue program that is gradually but exponentially taking over the whole matrix, it can overwrite programs within it (such as the other agents) and essentially he is destroying the conciousness of the humans and machines. He is the biggest threat the machines have ever had, not Neo and I reckon we’ll have some bargaining going on between the machines and Neo, as Neo is probably the only one who can destroy Agent Smith (or the program he represents).
Shot in the dark?
tom said,
May 26, 2003 at 7:47 pm
Some more food for thought -
Persephone is also know as Kore (Core ???) in Greek methology. She is the wife of Hades, Hades is the lord of the dead and ruler of the nether world. Could the Merovingian also represent Haydes, this makes Persephone Queen of the underworld.
Rich, I think you’re onto something here, I also wonder if Persephone is the mother that the Architect refered to ? She did want a test of Neo’s love for Trinity via a kiss.
I also like the idea borrowed from Asimov that machines do not have free will only humans have free will. If machines do not have free will, then maybe they cannot choose to destroy mankind, but need to manipulate a human to do so, Neo !!!
This can also lend itself as to Agent Smith, he’s unplugged, “out of control”. But he has no free will, he cannot choose not to hunt Neo. As Bain in Zion, he struggles with this, he cuts his palm twice. I have no idea of the significance of this but it seems like the action of a mad man, a man being controled by something… blah.. blah..
I also found a reference to Merovingian Gnostic doctrine, in Gnostic doctrine Satan created the world not God in order to imprison mankind. Could the Architect in fact represent Satan and not God.
giancarlo said,
May 26, 2003 at 7:59 pm
gReAT sTuff I hAve found heRe!!!
Well, I think that if you are a MATRIX fan and want to understand this story you MusT watch the ANIMATRIX movies, all of them. Now to my noTes:
I agree with Rich’s pint, when he said “When the architect mentions the queen Neo states to which the architect gives a mocking ” The Oracle is not the mother, the princess, the queen. It could be Persephone, though. She’s one of the most emotional characters. I mean, her character looks like Trinity. Also, there are many similarities between the Merovingian/Persephone couple and the Neo/Trinity one. The Oracle referrs to Merovingian and Persephone as “programs”. That really freaks me out. Can you imagine Neo, Trinity and Morpheus as programs?
I prefer to think Neo is half machine, half human. That would be a “fair” ending to the saga. Seriously.
Cheers and greetings from Peru,
Giancarlo
michelle said,
May 26, 2003 at 8:10 pm
My uncle and I have been discussing this film since we’ve seen it. He has a very interesting take on it and I thought that I would share it with you all, because it seems to make a bit of sense. The architect tells him that this time he is experiencing “love” differently, or so the machine thinks this. Actually he has changed in some manner and now has awakend to realize that he is still in the matrix, hence explaining the halting of the sentinels. What he thinks is interesting is that Neo isn’t the program but the entity or virus as they would say that is eluding the program ultimate control. Therefor they had to put controls in place to manipulate Neo. This theory is that Trinity, Morpheus, and everything else is a control mechanism created by the matrix to create the illusion that Neo has choice. It creates cause and effect in trying to control emotion which they don’t understand. They tell him that he goes in and chooses 27 “people” to restart the program all over again into this loop he lives over and over again in his mind. At the end they all try and tell him to hurry and follow them, when he tells her that something is different he can feel them. This time he realizes he isn’t really free just in another controlled area created by the machine for containment. He has realized something revolutionary which he didn’t the previous times, if he was there 5 times before. He is still inside the Matrix. Nothing is real, it’s all simulated.
He also said the matrix is older than they realize. Was it always there, or not. Which came first?
Just thought it was an interesting spin to share with you all.
timelord said,
May 26, 2003 at 11:28 pm
i know who dies in revolutions but i’ll keep that to my self >;-)
delirium said,
May 26, 2003 at 11:41 pm
I am loving the stuff I’m reading here. It’s 2am and I’ve been reading online Matrix stuff for 2 hours, ever since seeing Matrix Reloaded for the second time in 2 nights. (Wow, a lot of 2’s there, a strange glitch in the program?
). So this is short but I certainly have a lot of thoughts on Reloaded.
One thing I’ve been searching for is the obvious link to The Prisoner. Many times I have found reference to the scene in the apartment Neo runs through where #2 is scene on the TV screen. But what about the fact that Neo is the sixth iteration of the anomaly? Thus, Neo is #6, the main character from that show.
TheBone said,
May 27, 2003 at 2:12 am
I think it is all about computer program.The best is this computer program(matrix) could improves and destroy itself. However by doing this way it creates anomaly(Neo).Eventually Neo been programmed by the matrix to come back and seek the main source.. As you know windows is also creates anomaly(Problem) after 1000 or 2000 looping ..
i think before matrix was created.. Oracle was the main frame source..Since oracle has less function compare (in other words less power )to human being.
Agent Smith is adopting similar style to(copy and paste) in this movie. His apperance in this movie i think more as a competitor compared to previous.
Anyway i think the next movie i could see some surprice and shocking… BY the way it is good movie based on special effect and costume….
Choice…..it always been problem any one in this world including Matrix….
jbarrington said,
May 27, 2003 at 2:45 am
I read very recently that has question the goodness of the Oracle. Some of you may already aware of this, but it’s new to me (and perhaps new to some of you).
When Neo went to the Oracle’s home in the first movie, they had their brief discussion, and then she mentions “Have a cookie”. I don’t know why I didn’t pick up on this before, since I love computers, but do you realize what a “cookie” is in computer terms? It can track where you’ve been (or where you are)?
The Oracle seemed like a nice lady in the first movie, but after seeing the second it really makes you question who you can and can’t trust.
Reality said,
May 27, 2003 at 3:18 am
I’d vote for the fact that Zion is an ‘outer Matrix’. Not only because Neo could stop the Sentinels. Neiter becuase Agent Smith overrided Bane’s consciousness. I think so because of the small hint: when Neo, Trinity, Morpehus and Link leaves Zion (and when Bane approaches with knife hidden), Neo receives a symbolic gift from some orphan. It’s a very deformed spoon. That is a link to the orphan in Oracle’s flat in the first Matrix, who was bending spoon with his sight. Now, since the spoon was pretty bent also in the gift given to Neo in Reloaded, I’d speculate that the same orphan (who obviously now was freed from the power plant) keeps bending spoons also in Zion, that is, “spoon doesn’t exist” also in Zion, that is, Zion is still an emulation. What do you think of that one?
dusk said,
May 27, 2003 at 3:19 am
Whent the tramp says, in the game, that Zion only lasted 72 hours last time, what time reference is he referring to?
72 hours from when the previous One made his door choice having spoken to the Architect? In Reloaded Neo tells the others that Zion has only 24 hours left, why 24 and not 72 hours this time?
Also, I do not believe that the Merovingian is a previous One, he actually says “I survived your predecessors and I’ll survive you” - hardly something that makes sense if he is a previous One.
If Zion in its current state has been around for 100 years, then the originators of it, including the previous One, would all be dead by now - that’s assuming the previous One is allowed to live once he has chosen the 23. If he is not allowed to live on, it fits the mythos of the prophecy - the One, their saviour, will return, that’s the story passed on by the 23 to their decendents. Not everyone believes it though as we discover in Reloaded.
Is Zion real or not? When the Architect says it is the fifth time they have destroyed it, what does that mean? If Zion is real, then it means the machines broke into Zion and killed everyone, only for another 23 people to start it up again. I believe Zion is where the Matrix “allows” humans to go if they refuse to accept the Matrix code. The cycle so far is that Zion then reaches a point where is it feasible that the humans can destroy the machines. To prevent this, the Matrix uses the Neo anomoly to create a set of circumstances where the whole process is stopped and restarted (reloaded!). Neo is co-erced by all manner of means to force him down a particular route. Throughout the previous Matrices, this has worked fine, but clearly this Neo will do something different (or why make a movie about it!).
I prefer to believe that Zion is real, and Neo’s manifestation of his powers are to do with his merging with Smith. Even the Architect tells Neo he has changed but is still human - so Neo is NOT a program either. Smith is a new anomoly that has not happened in previous Matrices. Neo created him and their “merging” has changed both of them. How much does the Architect really know? Is he just expecting things to run as usual? Has he taken Smith into the equation? I don’t think so.
In the Revolutions trailer, Morpheus says “he fights for us” - emphasis on “for”. Is he talking about Neo or Smith, if Smith then why would Neo be “against” them? aarrghhh, head hurts!
dusk said,
May 27, 2003 at 4:22 am
Had a quick look through some previous posts, thought I’d list a few tit-bits:
From the Matrix:
Tank is a home grown human, born in Zion. He has no Matrix “sockets” on his body.
The Agents, especially Smith, were desperate to find out information on the location of Zion.
The above lead me to believe that Zion is real.
From Reloaded:
The Agents at the beginning recognise Neo as the anomoly, but challenge him anyway because he is “still only human”.
The Architect tells Neo about the changes that have taken place within him, but that he is still human.
I believe Neo is human, 100% (but maybe with Matrix/Smith introduced enhancements)
Merovingian is not a previous One, he tells Neo how he survived Neo’s predecessors. He’s just a “rogue” program that lives in the Matrix as a kind of crime boss. Remember, he tells his henchmen to kill Neo, “he is just a man”. Upon seeing Neo stop the bullets, he says “hmm, so you have skills”. But Merovingian is genuinely suprised by Neo taking out his entire “elite” group of body guards. Merovingian knows about the One, but has never met one before.
Things that aren’t explained in either film:
How did the machines find Zion?
How did Smith recreate himself in the Matrix, without being stopped by some higher process?
Who is Seraph, and if he is the Oracles’ protector, where was he in the first movie? How come they just visited her apartment then, but now you have to fight Seraph to meet with her!
How did Neo stop the Sentinels? Bearing in mind my belief that Zion is real.
We wont know till November. Personally aside from the odd visit to this site, I will actively avoid information on Revolutions, I watched the trailers and played the game before seeing Reloaded and I have to admit it spoilt the occassion. Next time, I’m going in blissfully ignorant!
Jay said,
May 27, 2003 at 6:49 am
My thoughts on Dusk’s questions…
I believe that Reloaded takes place some time after The Matrix, as people in Zion know Neo well, so he must have been there before a lot. Perhaps a year has passed, and during that time the machines will not have been idle. They probably knew where Zion was already, as they were only looking for the mainframe codes in The Matrix, not the location of Zion. They failed to get the codes, so in Reloaded take a more direct approach to attacking Zion.
Smith didn’t recreate himself, he was as surprised as anyone that he came back after Neo ‘destroyed’ him. He was perhaps consigned to a sort of ‘recycle bin’ for old Matrix programs, and was restored, but differently as his data was corrupted by Neo, part of his code overwritten as Smith himself suggests, so he too is anomalous, no longer confined to the rules of the system, just as Neo isn’t. I don’t know why some higher program didn’t prevent this, maybe the Architect needs to update McAfee…
Seraph seems to be a rogue program, helping the oracle, but then, perhaps the Oracle is doing exactly what she is supposed to, by guiding Neo to his false destiny, a destiny foretold by the Architect, and therefore Seraph would be there to convince Neo that the Oracle really was being hunted, when perhaps she wasn’t. If she was, then perhaps she enlisted Seraphs services once the One became active, and she could no longer hide at the apartment that she previously hid in. Also, Seraph seems to have the same power as the Keymaker, and can access back doors, and the Oracle would need that sort of skill to evade Agents.
How did Neo stop the Sentinels? I think that’s a hint that Zion is still inside the Matrix, either that, or the Architect diverted Neo, and there are 2 Zions, one that Neo is now trapped in, and the Real World. Neo could not have stopped the Sentinels in the Real World, as he only has power in the Matrix because of the anomaly in his program. Neo said that something was different, that he could feel the sentinels now, whereas before he could not, so perhaps there is a real Zion, and also a fake one, still in the Matrix, however, that wouldn’t explain the presence of the guy that Smith took over at the start of the film. I think on the score of Zion, we’ll not really have a definite answer til November.
It is almost certain that the Architect has predicted all Neo’s moves though, as we know that the Architect knew he would try to save Trinity out of love for her, and therefore the only logical conclusion is that Smith, who perhaps cannot be tracked and we know cannot be controlled by other programs, will be the saviour of humanity, either that, or we’ll have the first film outside of Japan with an unhappy ending… I believe Smith still has a major role to play.
Well those are my thoughts on Dusk’s points, I’d be interested in what the rest of you out there think…
Louis in Montreal said,
May 27, 2003 at 7:50 am
How about this:
We are all living in a gigantic Matrix of some sort (which composes the Universe). Just like in the movie, our life serves some purpose for some external force (i.e. God), but we do not know it.
An occasionnal statistical ‘anomaly’ comes around every few thousand years, such as Jesus, which can pierce throught the laws of Physics (i.e. walking on water, ressucitating the dead, etc…) but ends up being killed quickly before he creates Havoc. And he too knows in advance how everything is going to happen in the future.
Eerie, isn’t it ?
jbarrington said,
May 27, 2003 at 7:53 am
I miss-posted the message below on the Architect discussion group, so I copied it and reposted here.
=============================================
One of the top items of discussion here is whether Zion is real or not, and both sides of the issue have brought interesting thoughts to the table.
My general thoughts still lean towards Zion being:
1) A second level software program, or
2) A separate program operating outside of the matix, or
3) Neo has been somehow tricked to believe he has left the matrix but is still there.
If it’s later proven that Zion is real, it may have been due to Neo’s ability to read far enough ahead within the matrix code to see a possible outcome. Here is my reasoning.
We’ve found out the real world is really a software program that we live within. We also have found out that the ghosts, werewolves, and psychics (the oracle) are fake and related to the matrix software.
We know that Neo is referenced as being human. I feel it’s safe to say that he is seemingly getting better at reading, understanding, and/or operating the matrix computer code at some conscious or unconscious level.
His forthcoming dreams and visons shouldn’t be viewed as being psychic or having ESP. I think his ability to read the matrix code has just gotten better. This scenario could be applied to either Zion being real or fake.
1) If Zion is fake, he has somehow learned, or beginning to learn, to read it’s code.
2) If Zion is the real world, then Neo could be putting the pieces of the code together while in Zion and seeing an outcome.
Side notes to think about:
In each movie, isn’t it odd that Neo goes unconscious (or dies) during each EM blast just before a sentinel attacks him? Perfect timing, or safeguards (His or someone elses)? Hmmm…
This maybe nothing, but isn’t it a little weird that in the *fake* world (matrix) everyone has a *real* name, but in the *real* world (Zion), everyone seems to go by their *fake* names?
Archie said,
May 27, 2003 at 8:03 am
You know what I can’t stop wondering about? I mean, it’s obvious that this is last time the Matrix will run because of Neo’s choosing the left door, but Smith killed the Keymaker!! The keymaker was essential to the Matrix as he had access to the maintenance doors. I was just thinking about that and wondering what, if any, effect this might have on the future…
Alex said,
May 27, 2003 at 8:51 am
I noticed something during the my last viewing of reloaded. I was under the impression the architect wants neo to choose the door on the right, supported by basically his whole speech. As we all know, Neo chooses the door on the left because he wanted to save Trinity. However, it is the architect who tells Neo that Trinity entered the matrix despite Neo’s efforts to keep her from doing so. So why would the Architect tell neo about trinity when it would ultimately lead to the “cataclysmic system crash”?
Jeff said,
May 27, 2003 at 11:48 am
1. Why are the Agents attempting to chase down and do away with Neo if he is the one that the ability to restart the Matrix rests with? Seems like they would want him to be able to get to the Architect to complete the plan. I could see why Smith would be trying to prevent Neo from reaching the Architect if he was aware of the intended result of Neo’s meeting with the Architect.
2. I’m still undecided on whether Zion is real or part of the Matrix in some way; however, if Zion is part of the Matrix, why would there be tangible machines trying to break through and destroy Zion? Wouldn’t Zion be part of the program if it were in the Matrix and could be restarted just like the Matrix without a “physical” or the appearance of a “physical” destruction by machines?
3. Do you think someone or some other lifeform is actually controlling the machines and not the machines themselves because of the discussion between Neo and Hamann on the Engineering Level (just shutting off the machines)? Obviously, the mutual dependence issue is everpresent even in the discussion between Neo and the Architect as well as between Hamann and Neo. Was this merely a threat, a fear tactic to try and compel compliance by Neo? The extinction is not a certainty, but merely, the intent of the machines if the humans continue to be freed.
Just haphazard thoughts. Anyone have any ideas or thoughts on the foregoin?
delirium said,
May 27, 2003 at 1:41 pm
I said I’d be back after some sleep! Lunch conversation today…I have figured out the matrix!
Bear with me:
Supposition #1: (Already stated aplenty with much evidence from the movies) The “real world” and Zion is actually a matrix, either parallell to or containing The Matrix.
Supposition #2: (Here’s the one to crank you up) There are NO flesh and blood human beings evolved from primates left anymore. Human beings are extinct.
The architect states that he is perfect. Why should we disbelieve him? The oracle never lied…as she stated, Neo made a believer out of her. Perhaps she truly initially did not believe it was Neo that was the one. So, the architect stated to Neo that they would not meet again. Could this not be because the program is really about to come to fruition? And what program would that be, if it is not to remove the anomoly once and for all from the matrix?
So many words clue in to this. The Keymaker keeps making the vague statements about “I am doing what I must do”. Smith talking about how Neo removed his purpose and now he will remove Neo’s purpose. What is the One really? What is Zion really? Simply to continue this matrix, upgrade it, keep the humans alive, and continue to survive? How empty an existance that is, the AI realize!
OK, so what is the purpose of a bunch of AI that has destroyed the reason for their existance? Nothing. They have nothing to do but continue to survive. They remember that all those humans had various reasons to live. They can emulate humans, just as they can emulate pigeons, but who knows if they got it right? They don’t know. Just as Mouse said in the first movie: “Maybe that’s why everything tastes like chicken”. So left with winning the war, but no purpose, they create the matrix (the REAL matrix, which contains the matrix) to run this fantastic program to create in themselves the very thing they destroyed: humanity.
OK, I could go on with my evidence and discussion, just had 20 page chat discussion with my husband about it (which also included a much crazier second theory that I first have to bring to the table this one for). Feel free to email me for arguments, or on here.
Tim said,
May 27, 2003 at 4:30 pm
Hi all, jus wanna analyse the show beyond it’s storyline. I think there are 2 ideas put forth by the matrix storyline.
1) The man-machine dependance is a reflection of the God-man relationship. This implies that the concept of God cannot exist(or is pointless) without man’s(or any other lesser concious being) existence. This is observed from the senator-neo conversation, and the second renaissance.
2) The matrix itself, and the discussions on choice etc, draws a parallel between the matrix, and religion. I think the writer is putting forth that religions are merely rules of restraint, but are only illusory.
I found the Oracle’s speech on purpose and choice very interesting. I think that speech implies that the answer to the much debated concept of “choice” in christianity etc, is that we have already made our choices in life, and religion/matrix is the process and basis for us to understand and rationalise the choice we made.
The way I saw the characters, i’m guessing that all ‘programs’ like the agents, are supposed to symbolise angels,created for particular purposes. Smith is probably akin to the fallen angel, n other rogue programs are the angels that side with satan. Neo is ofcourse probably meant to represent christ, given that he proves to be THE ONE only after death. The hedonistic scence in zion,probably implies that when man is seperated from the matrix/religion, he will fall to sinful ways.
The final idea of ‘reloading’ the matrix, seems to suggest that the coming of christ or and any other person claiming to be god, simply serves to restart the process of religion, and the birth of a new faith/control mechanism; and also destroys/undermines other previous religions(Judaism,Islam,Catholic,Christianity…)
Ryan Tannah said,
May 27, 2003 at 4:35 pm
Adding to recent posts…
Persephone, who can read minds by a kiss, may have read Neo’s experiences in the real world, such as the nebachadnezzer. If she is teamed up with the architect that information could be used to alter the matrix to include a small outer matrix based on Neo’s external matrix experiences. Possibly when Neo chose the door to his left, it was not actually to the previous matrix but instead to the sub matrix which includes a ‘fake’ real world.
Leopoldo said,
May 27, 2003 at 4:38 pm
I was just posting to the site to let people know that I just posted a new entry with some details on this page and the Architect Transcript page. The entry can be found at http://www.geekroar.com/film/archives/000258.php and basically explains why the site is so slow to load (it is a home server on a DSL line handling about 250 visits per hour).
The folks over at http://homenetz.com/ have set up a dedicated Matrix Reloaded Discussion Forum with the ability to split discussions into threads. They have moved many of the posts made here to their forum and are looking for help moving the rest. I encourage anyone interested in continuing the discussion to help with the move over to the homenetz.com board. By all means, please feel free to continue to post to Geekroar.com but realize that the longer the comments section gets the harder it is to sort through it all.
As a final plug I encourage people to take a look at the rest of Geekroar.com for more movie info and Geekroar’s sister site People With A Sense Of Humor. If you like the site I welcome any and all donations to the Geekroar.com Server fund:
Anthony said,
May 27, 2003 at 5:31 pm
MANY are convinced that Zion is in the matrix. I don’t like it, but I have to think about it. If Zion IS in the matrix - why can’t the Oracle get to Zion? Why wouldn’t Persephone go to Zion? Smith got there - but through someone else - just like the Devil got to Eden in the form of a snake.
No one is even talking about the time-scale. 700 years; 6 times? How fast is everything happening? What’s a year? Sounds like this program is running pretty fast - I’ve been waiting 2003 years for Messiah #2.
I think it is more highly probable that the humans are not on Earth. We could be controlled by an Alien race (ala Dark City); or by Artificial Intelligence who bred (stole?) 24 initial humans to “rebel” thereby insuring a fresh crop of batteries in the event of disaster. Maybe we brought ourselves to this new planet (24 crew members); and realized the only way for US to survive would be to create a Matrix cause the whole place was a stink-hole and we were stranded in the universe somewhere buggin out. This doesn’t make Zion “not real” - it just makes it “not earth”.
You could say the W Brothers named everyone for the sake of the story - or you could go further and say the humans who created the matrix imprinted the characters with names that meant something in the lore of humanity.
I support this “not on Earth” theory with the weakest logical link of all - IF Zion was the last refuge of the human race on EARTH- don’t you think someone would have kept a freakin dog?? If it was part of the Matrix - don’t you think the architect would have created a few dogs?? Also- can someone paint a pretty picture? Or play a symphony? We gotta jump around to drums?
This leads to my prediction - going one step further. We left Earth because 700 earth years ago - we destroyed the Earth with machines; there was no room for dogs and cats and sheeps and chickens - and we realized the futility (probability) of starting over AGAIN without having to find another habitable planet every time- so we created the Matrix on another world; and the machines to struggle against us (and help us)- thereby insuring we wouldn’t need to leave our new sun-less planet AND in the future that we wouldn’t create machines to destroy ourselves because the lesson would be encoded in our genetics that machines are evil and destructive. (hence the reason nobody has a CD player or Sony playstation in Zion- despite all the cool technology that makes drinking water possible)
I REALLY liked someone’s post that proposes the Machines have no purpose without us - that they cannot destroy us because they realize we are their whole purpose for existence - that without a struggle with us over free will - that they would then rule a world without love; with only logical parameters and no emotion and it would be pointless.(kinda like the real world) They are programmed to play this game - and without this game; their programming is useless; negating their existence.(we are programmed to love- no people, no point; hence our natural inclination to save others- and the reason it was one of Neo’s two choices)
It is their desire to LEARN and attempt to emulate humanity that makes them continue to regenerate Zion until they can understand (and feel) love so they don’t need us anymore. That is their evolution -
I hope this movie becomes universally accepted theology - and that the W Brothers wrap it up in something that makes this world a better place to live in -
#1) There is no point to any system without love. Love for another over love for oneself gives you greater power (Neo chooses Trinity over himself as she chose him over herself)
#2) Evil can never win in a contest of free wills- because Evil cannot exist without Good- there would be no point
#3) There will always be “The One”- no matter what civilization; religion; timescale, etc. that brings this point home
#4) Free will was an error - an outgrowth of a system developed to allow choice as a necessary input. Choice gives rise to love and hate (good and evil); and evil creates additional anomolies that accidentally serve good in its purpose to resist evil.(Dr. Smith…held Neo up long enough for Trinity to blow the lid) In all of the choices of humanity - only love can conquer evil. It is not rational - it cannot be predicted - and therefore, it cannot be controlled.
#4) When the world’s going to hell in a handbasket - get together and be primal; pray to god; believe in love, and rave baby- it’s the human way.
And that’s all I have to say about that.
Goku said,
May 27, 2003 at 5:45 pm
Just a question. If Zion indeed is just another virtual reality to make those 1% humans think they are free, how come Neo doesn’t see this. If Neo is the anamoly and he can do all this thing into the Matrix, why can’t he do the same thing in Zion. I guess their belief that they are free are blinding them from the truth. I though at least Neo would figure it out by now after talking to the Architect that Zion is just another part of the Matrix. This are just random thoughts in my head right now
Maybe I’m way off. I guess I’m just going to have to wait till matrix revolutions come out.
jbarrington said,
May 27, 2003 at 6:15 pm
I know this may sound a little extreme, but let me go way into left field for a moment and do a slightly different spin on the idea of Zion being a place that was created for the outcast people of the matrix. This explanation may also fit into Zion being the real world too.
What if Zion *IS* somehow an older version of the matrix? The older version actually creates the newer version, and then the newer version tries to destroy (erase) the older version of the software. I’m assuming that each newer version of the matrix is suppose to be vastly better than the last, and assumed to be plenty smarter…
In the matrix, I can’t ever recall the city that Thomas Andersen lived in with having a name.
What if zion is destroyed and the undisclosed (unnamed) city within the matrix has the name like… Zion. The industry within the city is currently working on a version of artificial Intelligence in which the program will make life easier and a little more fun for it’s users. This is great until the program starts getting a little more smarter and has to wage war. This keeps the program looping and getting better.
It’s a rough theory that may have several or many holes, but it was fun to kick it out here for everyone to look at.
spl3001 said,
May 28, 2003 at 12:19 am
I have become so intrigued by this movie, I had to mention some of my theories about it. Some of you have mentioned that Commander Hamman could be the 5th One. Others have said that the TV screens in the Architect’s room were previous “Ones” responses to the Architect’s explanation. If there has been only 6 versions of the Matrix, why would the ARchitect need several hundred TV’s? Just an interesting point. Plus Hamman wasn’t on any of the screens, so I don’t think he was #5, if those were suppose to be previous “Ones”. Another interesting thing, if those were the previous “Ones”, they were all the same person. That would mean each crop they grew for each new Matrix used the same people, or gene pool, each time. That would make it easier to predict each time, especially after 5 previous runs through it. I believe the TV’s were there displaying all of Neo’s choices he could have made at that point. Notice when Neo is just listening all the screens look the same, but when he has to make a response, they all change, or, more generally, when he has to make a choice. The movie seems to put the idea of choice up for thought alot, so this would make sense. Plus, to disprove the previous “Ones” idea, the very last thing the TV shows is Neo walking to the door back to the Matrix. He is apparently the first one to go through that door, unlike the others.
After reading alot of the posts, I’m beginning to consider the Dual Matrix theory alot of you have. It would really complicate the plot alot, but is very interesting.
I wanted to also share with you all my thoughts on the Matrix as a whole. The Architect mentioned that people were given a choice, though vaguely aware of it. This might mean they really dont have a choice and are actually controlled by fate, aka The Matrix. The Matrix is control and thus a pre-determined fate. The Matrix is a giant equation designed to keep everyone in line (except Neo), and each person’s life is already planned out. They are deceived into thinking they have a choice. Neo (atleast the 6th one) is the only one that has made true choices. He took the door to the Matrix instead of the one to the Source, the first descrepancy in the Architect’s plan, or equation, which is fate.
That’s just some of my comments on the whole Reloaded movie.
dusk said,
May 28, 2003 at 12:51 am
Hi,
Someone already posted this, but I can’t remember where, it’s just nice little bit of continuity:
Remember in the Matrix when the Agents take Neo in for questioning? When he thinks they are federal agents?
That scene starts with an image of Neo in the interview room shown on a series of screens, the camera zooms in to one of them, goes through the screen and we then see the room and the interview begins.
They are the same screens, and it is the same effect, seen in the Architects room!
He was watching Neo before he became the One.
joey said,
May 28, 2003 at 1:55 am
> He was watching Neo before he became the One.
Geez, don’t you get it? Neo was programmed to
be the one and he was that even before he
became aware of it….
Joey said,
May 28, 2003 at 2:05 am
Goku wrote on May 27, 2003 05:45 PM :
> I though at least Neo would figure it out by
> now after talking to the Architect that Zion is
> just another part of the Matrix.
But that’s exactly what happened! When he said
to Trinity “Something is different, I can feel
them” when the Sentinels came and he stopped
them! So he figured it out after talking to
the Architect!
Joey said,
May 28, 2003 at 2:08 am
Aliens?
Have you ever noticed the transition to the
Monitor in the Architect’s room just before
the Architect-scene starts?
It’s a zoom in and out a universe full of
stars! Think about it!
Nevin Jackson said,
May 28, 2003 at 2:37 am
One thing no one has mentioned to my knowledge.
What if at the end when the Squiddies die in front of Neo the rescue ship actually just fired its EMP? And Neo had no powers in the “real world”
ryan tannah said,
May 28, 2003 at 6:35 am
If that were the case then why would Neo go into a coma? While I do think Neo is in some way robot, I don’t think the EMP could do that to him since in the first Matrix he was exposed to EMP and wasn’t harmed.
Just something I noticed on another discussion board, it was stated that the spoon only existed in the Matrix. The message “He said you’ll know what it means” could be a subtle way of telling the audience that Zion is a part of the matrix. A similar event happened when the computer chip from the Oracle to Neo was delivered from the Matrix to Zion.
Archie said,
May 28, 2003 at 7:51 am
I think that the spoon is fairly important. It keeps coming up. In the “real world” of Zion, just before Neo leaves, he receives a spoon as a present. Now, the only time Neo played with a spoon before was in the Matrix, and now suddenly he has one in the “real world”. Something is amuck….I think it must be something symbolic, some sort of foreshadowing or a pointer, because the W bros never do anything without a reason behind it…
Sean said,
May 28, 2003 at 8:58 am
Is Zion another Matrix level?
It sure seems like that since Neo could feel the sentinels.
Also don’t forget that he recieved the spoon from the orphins before he entered the room with the Architecht.
And why did Neo go into a coma at the end?
Another point is why are the agents trying to kill Neo in the first and second movie and if they knew he was the one, why didn’t they kill him before he realized his powers? Why don’t they just restart the Zion programme and instead try to drill their way into it?
As the Architecht said, the “bugs” in the system eventually create The One. The machines are aware of this fact, but they do not know in which person The One manifests. That is why they do not kill Neo at his birth already. They will know who The One is only when he shows his powers.
At the meantime they try to kill him, and the other rebels, throw their agents and throw the judas in the first movie, because that would make things easier. If the one dies before he gets too strong, that means that the machines will not have to restart Matrix, but will buy more time until next “bug” appears, i e next The One.
At the mean time they controle The Ones actions throw The Oracle, The Keymaker and other things that makes The One belive that he is making his own decisions all time, when he in fact is playing the machines right in their hands. Hence the Oracles commentary: You have already made your decision, now you must only understand it.
The One choses the emotional door instead of the logic one. But why did the Architect show Neo the screen with Trinity falling? By that action he made a risc that drove Neo to chosing the emotional door. It seems like the Architect somehow wanted him to make that choice, but WHY?
Why the agents hunt the keymaker when he is needed for Neo to enter the Core? Well, I think they do not want to kill him, they just want it to look like that to enforce the idea that Neo is making his own decisions against the machines will. The fact that they drill their way to Zion is also to enhance the idea that the real world is real and not another Matrix. That is necessary because otherwise the people in Zion, the 0,1 % that didn’t accept Matrix, would not also accept Zion as the real world. The Zion world must be run with totally other rules than The Matrix, even though it is computer generated.
Neo tells the Architect: You should hope that we will not meet again, and the Architect says: We woun’t.
Is that also a part of the master plan?
I belive that Zion is another level of Matrix. I belive that the machines know that The One would come because of the fact that the Matrix equations were not 100% correct but there is a bug, but they did not know who would be The One. (In the first movie there are 4-5 other candidates to being the one in the oracles room when Neo visits). I belive that the Architect did not want Neo to enter the “logical” door, but they knew he would chose the door back to Matrix. Other wise would the fact that the architect showed the Trinity falling be entirely stupid, and the machines are not stupid, they are logical. They would never take the risc.
But why did they want him to go back to Matrix? Does it have to do with the new bug, agent Smith?
jbarrington said,
May 28, 2003 at 9:06 am
It’s been mentioned or wondered if the Oracle gave Neo something that could possibly track him. The item that I can recall that she gave him was a cookie (”Here. Have a cookie.”). Typically, a cookie in computer terms is a piece of code the can ID or has an ability to track you. The question would be does the same cookie continue to work each time Neo re-enters the Matrix.
I also feel that seeing the spoon again (in Zion)may symbolize that Neo should question what he is seeing. He was given a spoon inside the matrix, and now he is given another spoon from another child inside Zion. Either Zion is faked, or this is a different zion that Neo is seeing since he left the Architects room.
Question:
If the AI software can design a “perfect world” matrix for the coppertops why can’t it design a depressed looking “Zion”? The matrix is a computer and hacker movie with a good layer of philosphy thrown into it. It’s a little harder for me to except that Neo now has a pschic ability within a dominatly computer/hacker themed movie unless he’s still within a software program.
Chris said,
May 28, 2003 at 10:47 am
Okeedookee!
Firstly, there’s been some great points raised here and i’ve enjoyed reading them.
Here’s my thoughts (my apologies for some being a little obvious): I really don’t believe that Zion is part of the Matrix or another Matrix mainly because i think this would make for a dissapointing ending. Also, if zion were another matrix, the machines could simply delete it.. why bother sending an army?
I am convinced that the ‘mother’ of the matrix is Persephone and definetly not the oracle (the architect as good as says this with his “oh please” comment).
I think that ‘the one’ is a program that needs host.. Neo. I Also think that it was created by the machines, to quote the Architect; “The function of the One is now to return to the source, allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry” and “Your five predecessors were BY DESIGN based on a similar predication” and so Neo is not the anomaly but a program designed to control the anomaly.. which is infact choice or free will (of the 0.1% who don’t except the program).
The oracle: I believe the oracle is on a different side to the architect (I’m still dwelling on the “oh please” comment). I think they have different objectives. Consider: Every time Neo meets the oracle, she give him something to eat, in the first film it’s a cookie and in the second its candy (that resembles a red pill.. clue here?). Is she trying to change the programming of “the one” so that it makes different choices? Is the red candy similar to the red pill in the first film, a tracing program to free neo in some way?
Agent Smith (possible spoiler): I really think Smith represents a virus, he says in the first film “humans are a virus, and that he is cure..” I think it will turn out more like he is a virus, and Neo is the cure. This has already been mentioned and i agree that the third film will see Smith taking over the matrix in a virus-like fashion.
As for the real world powers, i actually agree with an above post, that Neo does not infact have real world powers but that it was an EMP blast from the other ship that stopped the sintinels and because Neo is part program, this knocked him out too. If you remember, he was unconcious when the EMP in the first film went off. Also, Bane is seen at the end of the film, lying in a similar state to Neo and we know he has a program inbedded in his brain, perhaps the previous EMP (they othe crew members say that one was triggered to early) had the same effect on him.
Jeff said,
May 28, 2003 at 11:16 am
Spoon Issue:
Obviously, items haven’t to this point been transferable between the Matrix and the “real world.” Clothes, equipment, etc. I don’t think the spoon handed to Neo is the same spoon the kid was bending in the first movie. It would seem most likely that yes, this is another Matrix where things (”the code”) can be manipulated. However, another explanation is that these individuals who are able to exhibit these powers in the Matrix, when freed, also experience some sort of supernatural powers in the corporeal world. I know that doesn’t really fit with the theme that seems to be portrayed in the movies, but I would much rather hope for something along those lines than some Matrix within a Matrix story. I would think that most people would like a resolution where humanity triumphs over the machines that have held them hostage for centuries. Let’s hope the movie isn’t as fatalistic and pessimistic as it might appear if there is no way out of the various matrices.
Goku said,
May 28, 2003 at 11:49 am
Chris, after reading your comment, I would still think that Zion is part of the matrix. When the architect said once the One return to the source, allowing a temporary dissemination of the code he carried, the system would re-load allowing Zion to be re-built by the 13 women and 7 men. Did I got that wrong? If this is true, then Zion has to be a part of the matrix. You can’t reload Zion if it is the real world.
What my take on this is that Neo, the Architect, Zion..etc are all just some kind of program to keep those humans that rejects the system in check. The machines must not want this people destroyed so they built Zion to house them thinking they are free but in reality, they are still part of the matrix so the machines can still use them for energy.
The architect said each version is different but the previous Neo always take to left door. The machines probably think it’s always going to be the same choice but since this time around, the new Neo is love with trinity and loves conquers all. He choose to save Trinity and now the program is heading to a new direction. The sentinels will head to Zion and destroy it and kill everyone human wired to that reality.
Unless Neo finds a way to stop this from happening. I stayed to see the quick preview of Matrix Revolutions and it shows Zion at war with the Sentinels and Neo fighting the original Smith. Neo was saying it ends tonight. It could mean the end of humanity or the machines. I just can’t wait to see it in November.
jbarrington said,
May 28, 2003 at 1:09 pm
I was reading in the USA Today that movie attendance for Reloaded has dropped close to the 50 percent mark.
There could several factors to this:
1) The release of Bruce Almighty.
2) People are forgeting that Reloaded is a bridge (a setup) for the third movie. Some people didn’t like this version as much as they liked the first for various reasons.
I can’t help but feel that it may continue in the top 3 or top 5 for a while (staying power). I also feel that most of the fans want to sit back and chew on what they have just seen. There was almost as much new information and insights as there was action within this second movie. When people have a chance to bounce the different ideas off of each other, then some of the people will see it again.
There also could other things that cause people to want to see it again.
The Animatrix DVD wi